From a person who has been to war for "America", a Vietnam Veteran. There will be wars and rumors of war. It once again is not Mr. Obama's fault of not "giving them what they need". That is up to the commanders in the field. When one comes under fire, you never have what you need, you make due with what you have at hand. If you don;t have that, it does not necessarily mean it was not there. It simply means you died because you failed to use what you had.

To a certain degree, I agree. However, as a Vietnam veteran, you above most other commentors here should be well aware that the civilian government issued policy to the military during that conflict, often tying the hands of the field commanders with regards to rules of engagement. The result was often the needless loss of American lives. It seems like this is now occurring in Afghanistan. . .and that the lessons learned from Vietnam are either lost on the current administration, or have been forgotten.

As an OIF Vet, I agree with Bob-1984881, but will add one more thing. Civilian Leadership is at fault.

We lost the initiative in Afghanistan when we invaded Iraq. We should have used the resources that went into Iraq in Afghanistan in 2001/2002. - Civilian Leadership taking forces away from the ground commanders.

I imagine either Sun Tzu, Clausewitz or some other great military thinker has probably written that you need to attack your enemy with overwhelming force in order to obtain a quick and certain victory.

The "Rolling Start" to Operation Iraqi Freedom is another example of an under-resourced war. Shinseki got fired by Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz for saying more resources were needed.

Maybe we need to change the Constitution to make it a requirement that the civilain leadership in the Pentagon have to have prior active duty military service.

I swear this story is just disgusting! Our guys over there with no power??? Where's all the fu*king jets, helicopter gunships, artillery, etc... with the bombs to blow these chicken$#!T ragheads up????? This is beyond my comprehension!!! Get the Generals out there!!! Who the hell is giving orders??????

The SOB that sent these men to get their legs blown off, should have his blown off. We spend more money on defense than the entire world combined. Now a country with no Aircraft carriers, no submarines, no battleships, no fighter jets, no helicopters, no bombers, no cruise missles, no predator drones, no tanks, no armed personel carriers..... darn near no nothing..... and the result? There are new and better weapons in a Walmart store than the insurgents have, and you can get a used donkey very cheap from the BLM. The country makes Haiti look rich and we spent enough to build 3 $100,000,000 factories YESTERDAY.

So what we really did was bomb 3 American factories worth $100,000,000, and while doing so killed a few young men, and turned another 4 into amputees...... we do this EVERYDAY. WHY?

Young kids get their legs blown off so some jerk in Washington sitting at a desk can brag about how they won the war,

You're right Bob. I too am a Vnam vet so first let me say, welcome home!

I don't know why we are still in Afghanistan except that there are corporations making billions ( war profiteers ) as we spend spend $20 billion a month on the Afghan war (nationalpriorities.org) where we support a government that defines the term corruption, steals from and murders its own people and now whose soldiers are developing a nasty habit of attacking & killing Americans sent there to protect them. What madness is this!?

If we want to attack the Taliban and Al-queda and destroy them and their training camps we will eventually have to make war in Pakistan where the Talban and Al-Queda appear to have a safe haven. We pay the Pakistani gov. a few billion $$ each month supposedly to help us but whose own version of our CIA, the SIS is known to be supporting and offering aid and comfort to our enemies.

Our security at home is better than it was pre 9-11 so let us bring our families home to safety, stop running up the federal deficit by wasting billions each month and start waging a drone war against the Taliban and Al-Queda, a war from the sky. Obama has employed, to good effect-killing some top Al-queda and Taliban leaders as well as training camps-135 of the drones since taking office while G.W. Bush had used only 9 in a 3 yr. period.

Gunny, Semper Fi

As an American citizen, a couple of hackneyed phrases/terms keep coursing through my mind. I have asked for their meaning until I'm blue in the face.

I ask again, whether you support or oppose this war, please define for me: "Victory", "A lasting peace". What are those things, and how does one achieve them?

Please know you are answering someone who cannot understand how an invading nation wins another country's civil war, and someone who has not seen one single day of peace on this planet since his birth.

One last question: Is there a good reason why this administration isn't listening to the Viet Nam vets? They seem to understand exactly what is happening in Afghanistan.

For all of you morons and pacifists that want to leave Afghanistan: You FORGOT THE REASON WE ARE THERE AND NEED TO WATCH VIDEOS OF 9/11 AGAIN, BECAUSE SURELY YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN! We need to go in there with overwhelming force and win that thing quickly and chit can the rules of engagement that prohibit our guys from firing first. Don't leave until the job is done, including getting Osama bin Ladin. If Pakistan isn't getting the job done in their country, we need to go in there too. Civilians that support the Taliban and al Qaeda should have there homes burned to the ground or go to prison as penalty. Then, maybe they won't support terrorists anymore. Break their will to fight, win the damn war and get out. Obama is a POOR LEADER and should be impeached for his handling of this. They wanted 40,000 more troups to get the job done. Give them 40,000 more, not 30,000 more! Hell, give them 100,000 more! The "community organizer" doesn't know what the hell he is doing.

ATTENTION ALL THOSE WHO HAVE SINGLE-DIGIT I.Q.'s:

You may now cease your posting labors. Alan-301510 has come to relieve you of your burden.

Al-Qaeda is not the reason we are in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda has been reduced to virtually nothing there. The primary financial support for al-Qaeda's destruction of September 11, came from Saudi Arabia. When should we attacked the house of Saud, Alan?

Overwhelming force? The armed forces of the United States are spread across more than 50 countries. There's a hefty contingent in South Korea. Yes Alan, there have always been people like you, and 60 years ago, the U.S. flexed its muscle, killed 33,000 Americans and to this day abides by a truce there. Kim Jong-il ring a bell, does it?

Viet Nam? Yessssirrrreeee. Take a contrived incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, kill 58,000 Americans and realize that those who were there are still asking, "WTF were we doing there?" Something about dominoes, I believe.

Iraq? Now there's a success for ya. Not a weapon of mass destruction to be found. Work with me here. Bush said there was. Today, under the leadership of Obama, we know there aren't any weapons of mass destruction. Hell of a job that Obama guy did, wouldn't you say?

Hey that worked out well, work with me some more. Afghanistan was said to be where al-Qaeda and bin Laden were hanging out during the Bush Administration. Today, under the leadership of Obama, they're both gone, and soon American troops will be leaving Iraq AND Afghanistan will be leaving. That sure has the earmarks of success.

Now, as far as Pakistan, there's been a lot of drone activity, not to mention a hot pursuit or two, and it sure looks like al-Qaeda is rocking in its heels. I haven't notice any major assaults by either al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

What you don't understand is that the U.S. military is stretched to the breaking point. Suicide is epidemic. Multiple rotations are standard. Families are being split up.

But you Alan, you're one tough SOB. Go join the military. You tell those guys how it's done. Show them how to ignore reality. You're pretty good at it.

David Walker,

You are a fool and most of your comments are IDIOTIC!

First of all, it is a fact that Iraq used weapons of mass destruction, i.e. mustard gas against the Kurds, killing thousands, so don't give me that crap. Yes, chemical weapons are classified as WMD, moron. They most likely moved all of their chemical weapons to Syria when the war began. As far as nuclear weapons, I think Hussein was acting like he had them to keep Iran from attacking Iraq and played a game of cat & mouse with the UN.

U.S. military is stretched to the breaking point

That's because it has been reduced to a much smaller force, most recently by the Clinton administration, and it is managed by our inept government that couldn't punch its way out of a paper bag. Some of our military bases are no longer needed, post cold war, and should be closed down, i.e. Spain and Iceland as well as others. Yep we have military bases there. We also should have completed the war in Afghanistan BEFORE taking on Iraq.

Show them how to ignore reality

It is YOU that is ignoring reality because if we don't win this war over there, we will one day be fighting them over here. Maybe not in our lives but possibly in our grandchildren's lives.

And by the way, if I was young enough at the time, I would have joined the military right after 9/11, unlike your pacifist, sad, asz. Surely, David, you have something better to do than to make yourself look like an idiot on the internet.

David Walker,

Also, if we fought WWII like we are fighting this war and like we fought the Vietnam war, we would certainly have lost that war and the world would be a much much different place. Think about it. Read a history book.

what most people do not understand that this is NATO operation. we should force our so called

allies to supply this millitary operation with combat troops and not support personnel. when

casualties are announced, they listed as NATO troops, but the casualties are most of the time

american. why are americans deployed in the most volital regions?

Alan - so you are saying that the people and families of people who died in the Sept. 11 attacks would justify a 9 year war with many more Americans dying to get back at the guys who hit us? We don't fight wars in this country for vengeance, try and justify anything with revenge and you've already lost. Oh and calling people you don't know morons and pacifists on top of having what appears to be no ability to comprehend other peoples points of view speaks volumes about your character, how about having a civil discussion, check your emotions before you post.

"The best defense is a good offense. Always make the enemy fight on your terms." The US thought that they had applied this on invading Afghanistan but the instant we did this we gave them the upper hand. WE are now fighting on their terms.

Between the clowns who think My Lai is the proper rules on engagement and the Vietnam "LOSER DEFEATED" Veterans, whose mettle was tested in combat AND FOUND WANTING, its obvious the clowns treat US citizens as a gravy train that doesnt quit giving their asses thats doesnt even qualify for welfare are giving us another ripoff worth a few trillions dollars in military "toys" hardware.

Few words but absolutely on the mark.

I'm an other VietNam vet when I was in I corp we had this passivacation program to where a patrol leader had to call in for permission to return fire when they were sniped on by Charley, so this is not the first time the gov. didn't come thru with the tactics we needed to stay safe, and return in one piece. Though now I read all of this and I really pray for these guys. Some times I forget what it was like but then I block it out, and try to forget.

Semper Fi Gunny and welcome home

Gentlemen: a purpose of war is to free the oppressed. It appears the folks in Afghanistan want to be oppressed. The citizens of that country and the rules of engagement of the local government are contrary to our fighting beliefs. We have no purpose and will gain nothing by engaging their enemy in their homeland. I believe it is time to pull up the tent pegs and return our boys to their homes. On another note : we enlisted to fight. It is in our blood. It is no longer necessary to shed our blood for the Afgan people. They do not care and never did care nor will they ever care about our men and women who are wounded or died for them. Our own gov't doesn't care about our troops or they would have realized we need to dismount and return home. We are organized...they are not. Hit and run tactics usually win a conflict. I have many friends in Afghanistan and Iraq. I pray for their safety every day. Our brothers and sisters need to come home and let the Afghan folks live the way they want to. Oppressed. Let them shed their own blood for their country.

I love how the people who have never been in the military, never been deployed, never shot a weapon short of video games or hunting get on the internet and yell the loudest about what we need to be doing over here in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This isn't like Nazi Germany for one thing. It's not a nation of brainwashed people that we're fighting against here. You can't go steamrolling thru the countryside demolishing anything that gets in your way. These people, the ones who live here, didn't ask for this war. They had nothing to do with so called al-queda or 9/11. Most of them wouldn't even be joining in with the "insurgents" had the US thought about this BEFORE we came in using tactics like Alan above has suggested. If there are American terrorists in my neighborhood and i'm not one, but the invading force comes thru and blows up my house, killing one or more of my children in the process, you're damn right i'm gonna go join the people who are attacking them.

Yes, the American people should have never let bush invade Iraq. No, there were no WMD's in Iraq when we invaded. For whoever quoted the issue about the Kurds, do you even know how long BEFORE the invasion that took place? Next time you make uninformed posts please do some research. Had we simply stayed in Afghanistan and done what was originally planned (not that we'd have found Bin Laden anyway) many needless deaths (on BOTH sides because a human life is a human life) could have been prevented. For all those rabid bush fans who let him walk into office twice you have no one but yourselves to blame.

Before you run around shooting your mouth off about "our hands being tied" open a book, hell open a web page, and do some research to understand how the fighting is going and why we CAN'T just go around and use "all the fu*king jets, helicopters, artillery, etc... with the bombs".

Why can't we use the fu^&*() jets, helicopters, artillery ect.... Because some UN fu^& says so? Yes many needless deaths could have been and still could be prevented by giving our troops the resources and "permisions" they need to do their jobs. Just curious, what branch did you serve in? What time period? Zenfreedom?

I'm in the US Army and I've been serving since 1996. I happen to be in Afghanistan at the moment. Where would you happen to be TexRat?

Your right, I'm in Texas. Thank you for your dedicated service! Don't think because I'm not there that I'm scared or don't want to be. I'm too old now days for them and I served in the Gulf War.

Please let me get back to the question - Why don't the jets and helos and artillery be used more? I hate the ROE set up on our guys! I say if you need artillery, you should be able to call in artillery. If I were there I would probably have been thrown in jail by now because if they are willing to walk around openly with weapons then I would be shooting them. I don't know how you guys and girls do it, very frustrating to me and I'm not having to live (or die) by them. I wish you guys could fight the way you were trained and not the way some knuckle head in the UN says.

Good luck and stay safe! Be watching for a reply.(if you have time)

But that's just it, the so called Taliban isn't walking around openly with weapons. If you're going to be attacked out here you won't see it coming. These people (the Afghans that actually live here) have been fighting wars for their entire existence. They know how to wage a war in their own land. The Taliban that everyone is so concerned about (the leaders) are most likely not from Afghanistan, the same way the "insurgents" in Iraq were not Iraqi citizens but muslims coming from everywhere to fight the US Army. The Iraqi citizens were waging war against themselves.

We can't just go around blowing everything up out here because it will make enemies out of people who have no involvement with the taliban or other "terrorist" group. There are civilian living areas everywhere you look around here or farms or other such means for the people to eke out a meager living. Not everyone here is a heroin farmer. The war is frustrating and the RoE is frustrating as well, but if you just run around shooting anything that moves we will lose whatever the ultimate goal for Afghanistan was. In my personal opinion there is no threat from al qaeda or the taliban back in the states and we'd be much better off simply leaving the country. As far as I'm concerned Afghanistan was simply a stepping stone for bush to launch his personal agenda into Iraq. He started all of this and then washed his hands of the matter and left office before it was finished so he could make busniess ventures for his dad and his friends. He was a worthless president and he figured a good war would bring his approval rating up and probably make his dad proud. I'm pretty sure he's happy, he's never had to go to war himself so his actions don't affect him or anyone in his family.

And thank you for the well wishes Tex!

I wish it was as simple as give them all they need or get them out. Or do I support the troops. Yes, I emphatically support the troops. I support them so much that from the very beginning of our invasion of Afghanistan was predicting another Vietnam like quagmire. It should have been a one single military mission operation, to go in and take out the Al Qaeda leadership after sealing off the border to Pakistan. That mission would have had a defined starting point and ending point to be carried out quickly with overpowering force and air support. No "you broke it, you fix it."

No billions of dollars in aid, no staying to reconstruct the country, no setting up a corrupt puppet government. The bottom line here is the Karzai government is corrupt, he stole the last election, and he does not have clear support of Afghans. The Thiu government in South Vietnam was corrupt and did not have clear support of the South Vietnamese.

Here we go again with an assymetrical, insurgent war with no front lines and the troops cannot identify local friendlies from local enemies. So what do you do when you see it will be a quagmire? What the troops really needed was a situation where winning was a realistic expectation.

To all the Veterans who have replied here...thanks for your service. Now, as a Retired combat Veteran myself, of numerous conflicts, starting with Vietnam, let me say I wholeheartely agree with

Bob1984881 in his assessment of soldiers, commanders, and civilians. Most civilians who have never served in combat situations have no idea what it is to be on the front lines of combat. Soldiers today cry too much about what they don't have, the Military has become to political at the front line/combat level. With my combat Soldiers, I cannot remember any of them crying about what they did not have on the front lines, we adjusted, made do, with what we had, we used what we had to stay alive and complete the mission. War is never nice, never will be, War has been fought for political reasons from the beginning of time. It will always be that way.

Did you have more than 7 soldiers?

And how many IED's, VBIED's, or EFP's claimed the lives of the soldiers you fought with? Much of the tech used at the front lines now didn't exist when you were with your combat soldiers. The tactics and the wars have changed. It's extremely condescending thanking us for our service in one breath and then insulting us in the next. Soldiers on the front lines don't play politics. The politics are played by the officers and politicians who don't go outside the wire, and aren't out on the foot patrols looking at everyone on the street and wondering if that's the guy who's going to kill you.

"War is wrong, always wrong."

You're right we should have let Hitler murder everyone he deemed subhuman instead of defeating him. We should have let the south continue slavery. In short, if someone is bad we should just let them continue to be bad.

Pretty stupid comment you made there....

@clhh

Oh boy, what an ostrich! You sure sound comfortable in your delusional world with your head buried deep!

The killing will never stop, so learn to accept it. For it is!

Oh yea, chh-2048208...war never makes sense. Just give up afghanistan to the Taliban and Al Quaida. What the heck. They're all peace loving citizens just out to defend their country. Right...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you REAL cheap.

Idiot, these are the same people (Al Quada) that are sworn to kill Americans wherever we're found, in the U.S. or anywhere else in the world.....and not just American soldiers, but if even YOU were to come face-to-face with a member of Al Quaida he/she would drop you like a fly in an instant without even thinking twice about it. That's their singulara mission. For god's sake they're even killing other Muslims just because they don't believe in the same strict rule of Islam that they do. And you want to just let them go? Is your sky pink?

'Violence is never the answer' eh? That mentality has enabled brutal dictatorships and allowed the continued killing of innocents on countless occasions. You may feel this way, but you must then acknowledge that often the only alternative to violence by one party, is to allow violence by another party to continue unabated.

The reason -- officially -- that we went to Afghanistan was to stop al Queda.. Mission accomplished, they no longer have bases there. NOW we are fighting the Taliban which, like it or not, was the government of Afghanistan. Karzi's government and the Northern Alliance War Lords are no better at human rights than the Taliban was, so why are we there? Oh yeah, we are propping up another west friendly puppet. Fight on

I will paraphrase what I believe clhh-2048208 is trying to say but I will use the words of a great orator of our time, Mr. Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along."

Profound words from an exceptional intellect.

Chris - So you are saying that death an destruction to force ideas is good?

Bob - Why would i ever accept something that i don't like?

clhh, and SeanDe,

Please read post # 1.8.

If we leave and let the Taliban resume control they will allow al queda to operate freely once again and it puts Americans in danger again. Never lose sight of why we are there in the first place. This is a war that we need to win no matter the cost.

War is always wrong? Love that blanket statement. Tried talking to Hitler how did that work for you? No war...no America. Just ask the British. Get a clue about history before you start your little "give peace a chance" whine. You people just don't get the real world.

mop95 - Everyone keeps talking about Hitler? Do you know anything about history? We didn't get involved in that war until HALF OF EUROPE was already dominated by the Nazis'. The US at the time was more than happy to stay out of it and live peacefully, the ONLY reason we got involved was because we were eventually attacked by the JAPANESE and because they were allies with the Nazis' we decided to fight Hitler. Get your facts straight. This country was almost as passive as Switzerland at the time. Only after WWII did the US start to feel its oats and decide that they could attack other country's freely "IN THE DEFENSE OF FREEDOM". Guess what, you can't force ideals, how many of our defense of freedom wars have we won since WWII.

Just an update for you guys... Al-Qaeda hasn't stopped operating out of Afghanistan yet. As long as we're here, they'll be here. But due to the fact that the people who want us to stay in Afghanistan and Iraq so badly AREN'T THE ONES DOING THE FIGHTING, we'll most likely never leave.

Yeah, let's pull out so Al Q can come here and then we can fight them in Houston, New York, Boston, ect.... Man, some peoples kids! Al Q will try to hurt us no matter where, get that thru your thick skulls people.

You're right. And we're doing soooooo much here to really inspire the populace to turn away from Al Q. What we SHOULD be doing is getting the rest of the world involved in helping these people to help themselves. If you're a dirt farmer and the invading force has done something to give you a cause for grievance with them (which applies to the majority of Afghanistan after 9 years) you don't have much going for you. Someone comes along who feels the same way you do and has had the same experience with the US military that you have and they offer you $200 cash to go put a bomb in the road what are you going to do? The US Army coaxes people to sign up with the promise of "blowing sh!t up, and killing ragheads so you can go home and eat apple pie and play video games". Much like other problems facing a nation stopping the cause of the problem helps more in the long run than short sighted, short term "goals" Ever hear that "prevention is cheaper than the cure"? We can't afford to just go thru and level Afghanistan. They thought and tried that and look where we are today?

It's a mess for sure. I thought Bush would have had the balls to make the tough decisions and do what needed to be done but...... Politics as usual got us running in circles, accomplishing nothing.

bush went into Afghanistan and Iraq with a personal agenda. It's quoted everywhere that he came into office looking for a reason to go into Iraq. There was nothing honorable in our invasion of Iraq nor the subsequent occupation of that country. If the US were any other nation, we would have been up on charges before the world court for our actions. The only reason we aren't and that bush and his administration aren't, at this moment is due to the fact that we are the biggest and most well equipped fighting force in history. Without the United States, NATO would be no more. I thank you for your prior service as well Tex. Wars are fought differently these days, the enemy is no longer wearing a uniform.

Understood. We kind of invented guerilla warfare (revolutionary war), one would think we would be alot better at fighting it. I don't have all the answers but I know we have people alot smarter than me that should by now. Or could it be we are not as smart and powerful as we like to think we are?

Wars are fought differently these days, the enemy is no longer wearing a uniform.

Zen, thanks for your service and your comments! I'm a Vietnam vet as well. I can certainly sympathize with your current situation. The enemy isn't well defined and your mission isn't well defined. The politicians just want you to keep plugging away in the hope that somehow things will get better. Bush wanted to bring democracy to the area... that might have been a noble goal; however, not everyone is ready or willing to accept our "gift" of democracy. Many of these folks are pretty much living in the middle ages and really have not concept of such things. Besides, when they had their first elections they technically pretty much had a democracy! Are we waiting for the Taliban/AQ to unconditionally surrender? Never going to happen my friend. Arrrrgggghhh... we can't stay and we can't leave! Bush is at fault on this one... he said he wasn't into "nation building"... then he went right ahead and got us into this mess. He should have quickly gone in a put a hurt on the Taliban/AQ for 9/11 and then got us the hell out of there! Like you, I agree that invading Iraq was simply compounding the mistake. Anyway, all the best to you and yours and here's hoping you can get the hell out of that mess soon!

Bush didn't want to bring democracy to this area. He just needed a closer jump off point to Iraq. And who is to say Afghanistan wanted/needed democracy? Invading a country to make it like your own sounds alot like what Saddam was doing back in the 1st Gulf War doesn't it? The US doesn't have the right to go around forcing its ideals on other nations simply because we think they should be democratic. There is no measurement for victory in Afghanistan. The bush administration got what it wanted out of Iraq and that was the focus of all of this anyway, so now no one cares. The taliban isn't going anywhere, Bin Laden (if he ever existed in the first place) isn't going anywhere, and Islam isn't going anywhere even with our perceived vain efforts to extinguish it from the Middle East. There is no way out of Afghanistan, LoL. The sooner people realize that, the sooner we can all come home.

ZenFreedom i am 100% in agreement with what you said about the US not having the right to force ideals. Also with what you're saying about Islam not going anywhere. Its a bad combination, You can't force ideals (democracy) and you can't kill an idea (Islam), which seems to be what has been and is being attempted here. If these people really wanted freedom they would do it the same way the US did, revolution. We can't help people who don't want to help themselves and aside from that, who's to say it is helping, these people have lived this way for years and have made no moves to change anything.

"who's to say it is helping, these people have lived this way for years and have made no moves to change anything."

Thank you for stating that. Islam isn't just an idea, it's just as much a valid religion as christianity or cathlocism or judaism. The Afghani people really don't want us here, and if our meddling by the CIA back in the days haven't shown us anything it should be that the US should keep its nose in its own business. Democracy doesn't work for everyone (hell, it doesn't even work for America as seen by the chaos that is American politics) and I really wouldn't wish it on anyone who doesn't want it.

The article didn't say this was the only platoon at the camp, it specifically stated several of the men were wounded while walking on patrols with men from other platoons.

Not McChrystal's fault, or Petraus' fault, it's our fault. We should have at least 600,000 troops in Afghanistan. Then generals could allocate them in a way that could police and run the country. Higher troop levels will mean lower casualty rates. But we don't. We have 68,000 now - a peak number which is ridiculously low. See: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5855314-503544.html

In Iraq our peak troop levels were 150,000 for a number of years. Iraq is flat, easy terrain for classical modern warfare. Afghanistan has approximately the same population, and it is mountainous, excellent terrain for classical guerrilla warfare. The terrain means that we should have at least 4 times the troop strength in Afghanistan as we had in Iraq, and preferrably 8 to 10 times Iraq's levels. And yet, during the time when we had 150,000 troops in Iraq, we had 20,000 in Afghanistan. We allocated 1/8th the resources to the war that is 4 times harder to fight.

What is remarkable is the job Afghanistan's soldiers have managed to do given the absurd resources they have.

No sh*t! This is a direct result of the top not listening to their field commanders. There is no excuse for 17 men much less 9 men leading the way...

General Powel has been saying that since the begining, Bush or Obama seems to be deaf.

FYI - 17 men are not a full platoon either. So, they went there short-handed. What was the command thinking sending a platoon at 51% strength? A unit is combat ineffective at 60%

Crap, things sure have changed since '96 when I retired.

A platoon is 16 to 44 men in size. It's not a max size unit, but it's a platoon.

There are cases of combat units that won significant battles at low % of original strength. For example, in Korea, a unit with 12 men left out of 44, where only 9 were not wounded, captured a hill and a garrison of 200+ Chinese troops. They were almost out of ammunition.

Yes, they should get reinforcements. Best strategy would be to pull out, then come in with overwhelming force, surround and destroy the insurgent troops that come out of hiding. In wars of attrition (the method being used here) it is difficult to engage and destroy the enemy.

The platoon under discussion is a Field Artillery platoon (from A BTRY 1/320 FA) which typically contains less personnel than an Infantry platoon. They appear to be working outside their area of expertise to start with. Given the minimal of information provided in the article it does not appear that we have an incident of the platoon being "over run" by a superior force indicating not enough personnel. Casualties commonly occuring in this theatre appear to have attrited them down to where they were no effective anymore. I haven't been to Afghanistan (yet) so I can't comment on the conditions directly in that country. Good luck to those Soldiers.

John T - I think the incident your are talking about had one man who was awesome, a real John Rambo type. I can't remimber the hero's name but I heard tale of him taking on 20 or 30 by himself. will look up his name so all will know what kind of soldiers are out there. We are not at all " paper tigers" as Osama likes to call us.

Amen. Let them fight without having an arm tied behind their backs with the stupid rules of engagement now in force. Men are dieing because of the politicians in Washington.

We neither have the know how or resources or enagagement of American people to win this thing. It is President and military people who are waging impossible war. It is like some one killed a cop in Harlem and we declare war on harlem.

This ocutnry is going broke and does not have even capacity for decent medicare or reiintegration of injured soldier in society. I still see VIetname sodiers crippled, lonely and ignore often begging on street corner.

As I understand it, the current rules of engagement were implemented by General McChrystal as part of his overall counterinsurgency doctrine. Hence if anyone tied the soldiers hands behind their backs, it was their former commanding officer.

Could not agree with you MORE. This stupid politicians, who never put their asses on line, want to limit the ability for our young soilders to, most importantly, come home alive, and secondly to win the war. Politics is the reason bin laden has not been plucked from his hiding place and it irritates me to no end.

What war is winable?

Yes, and Afghanistan's is pretty bad too...

I agree with you. This is a selfish war started by greedy president for oil money. This war is worse than Viet Nam. It has has to stop. Let's swallow our pride, leak our wounds and stop the unnecessary loss of precious American young lives.

"Our rules of engagement". Neat term set forth by tje Geneva Convention. They don't always work. When you see innocents slaughtered by an opposing side indicating the ROE have been violated you think differently. War in itself, has no rules. It's desticnt purpose is to kill whomever opposes you.

Ask a Vietnam veteran how much "rules of engagement" dictated to the military as a result of civilian government meddling worked out there.

War is not a popularity contest, and should never be mistaken for one. It is a brutal practice that should only be used as a last resort. When it is deemed necessary, it should be executed with overwhelming force and violence, to bring about its end in an expedient manner. Doing otherwise is a disservice to the men and women engaged on the ground.

Yes, because I'm sure you two armchair quarterbacks have been to Afghanistan and Iraq? I'm assuming that's the case being that the two of you seem to be able to quote "war doctrine and philosophy" like nobody's business, so you must be well seasoned veterans of the wars?

You have a great advice here, if some are smart enough to take heed to!

I enjoyed my 4 year stint, and I'd recommend it to anybody wishing to learn about themselves, others, as well as travel and get paid to go to college.

The military was one of the greatest times of my life. And unless you've served I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I volunteered to serve. Obviously you have not and find it your mission to tell others how not to. I as I said "served" and did so proudly and would again. However since Vietnam, I have come to realize when I thought I was protecting the American way of life, some Americans were no appreciative. In Vietnam 582,282 and still counting, died. America was ungrateful. Now I think Ellis Island should be a history museum. A tarp thrown over the Statue of Liberty and the Great Wall of America erected. America should take care of its own from within. Everyone else in the world should have to do the same.

Let me enlighten you. I am the mother of a soldier who served this country proudly with 2 tours in Iraq. The recruiters were painfully honest with him from the start. He was informed that he would be heading off to war, but before he left for bootcamp he was also given the option to change his mind. He did not and chose to go so that "liberal cowards" like you can sit here and @!$%# about the military. My son is now out and working productively as a civilian but contemplating the Natl Guard. However that won't happen until we elect a non-muslim, non-socialist president whom he wouldn't follow across the street.

Bob-1984881: PhantomBeast warning parents to make sure their children read the enlistment contract carefully before signing it does not mean he/she never served. It's actually a wise practice to read any contract before adding your signature. And PhantomBeast is right...if they still decide to enlist after reading the contract, then at least they know what they are getting into. As the proud daughter, granddaughter, sister, wife, niece, cousin and daughter-in-law of many volunteer service members from all branches and every war since WWII, I have listened to each of my veteran relatives speak of their time in service with fondness. They speak of the friendships made, how much they've learned about themselves, and far away places they never would have seen had they not enlisted. But they do not romanticize it...each service member who served in combat recalls some event in which they feel the military, the CIC, whichever, reminded them that service members are "GI" - equipment, not human beings. These veterans weigh the good with the bad, do not regret their service to the country, and recognize that civilians are typically not aware of the service member's experience, which explains a lot of insensitive or ignorant comments that some civilians tend to make....and they recognize that their service in the military preserved that right to say even the most insensitive things. As younger relatives grow up and express interest in joining the military, each of my veteran relatives advises them to read the contract before signing. So again, advising people to read the enlistment contract before committing your time and possibly your life to your country is not foolish...it is not the mark of a civilian, or of someone who doesn't care about or understand or support the service members. It is merely a wise bit of advice that we would all do well to heed, whether it is a military enlistment contract, a lease, a petition, whatever - it is unwise to sign something without reading it.

Excellent response, Mom! To Bob, before we close the borders, can we ship out our Commander in Chief before we shut them? Let HIM go serve so he can see what he's put these men and women up against. Personally, I don't think he gives a damn because he's too busy playing nicey-nice with the Muslims and Russians, while Hilary talks it up with China. What the hell is wrong with this picture!

Geneva convention may have a problem with this one. But so what. They'd do the same in the name of allah, mohommed, or jebus, whatever...

yes as a 13b(cannon crewmember)artillery man i can say we are trained for this all soldiers are trained for infantry tatics but no amount of training can prepare for these kind of things it just takes gut feeling and instinct to get thru and having served with A 1/320th in OIF 07-08 it hurts my heart to see what my brothers are going thru but i'm happy to report that gatson and ssg malin are in recovery at walter reed with their families by their side and i get constant updates from gatson's wife

Good question! I wondered that myself. Drones can stay in the air for hours and hours can't they? Any body digging and planting an IED is fair game. Ba-Boom!

1 platoon of atrillery men on patrol? Are we sure Rumsfeild still ins't running this thing? That many men in that enemy laden area is a crime not combat, they should much more, they deserve better.

You guys look at military gadgetry like it's the stuff you see in TV shows. Reality check: the equipment the majority of the troops on the ground are using is not anywhere near that advanced. It's been in theatre and in service for most likely 2-3 years now, has likely been broken numerous times (soldiers are not geniuses), and has had to be repaired numerous times. Afghanistan has an extreme shortage of everything for US troops. Afghanistan was never meant to be the plan. The plan was always to go into Iraq. We've been in Afghanistan longer than we've been in Iraq but you wouldn't be able to tell looking at the FoB's, CoB's, and CoP's out here. All of those glorious tax dollars we've been shelling out for years have been going to Iraq. Afghanistan was a second thought.

Drones may well be able to stay in the air for hours, but eventually they will have to be refueled, the personnel manning the drone station will have to be changed out. And then there's the fact that the people placing the bombs are a little smarter than you guys at home have been lead to believe. These aren't crackheads running around out here and leaving pipebombs in the ground. If they look up and see drones in the air they aren't going to attempt to bury an IED. If a drone spots someone planting an IED no one's going to be able to get there fast enough to do anything other than blow it up.

If moron Bu$h didn't insist on going into Irag (and going against his general's advice) we wouldn't be in this position! Maybe your one of those who wanted him to send more troops without end there too like Palin and send endless amounts of troops to guard our borders-without raising taxes to pay for it! just more borrowing from China.You right wingers make me sick!

Tom 1951569- You're an idiot. I recall towers falling and burning in New York with people being killed as the precursor to Iraq or Afghanistan. What does being a "right winger" have to do with it? Idiot.

@tro222998 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we went to Afghanistan after Sept 11 as this was where our intelegence told us the Taliban were. We reduced our troops in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq because of the mysterious "yellow cake" and WMD that were never found and never there. I'd probably do a little more research before calling someone an idiot.

Your an idiot! Unlike most right wingers that can blame Obama for everything I can point to examples to back up what I say.Bush went into Iraq based based on bad intelligence with no exit strategy naively believing once Sadam was gone everything would fall into place..When generals warned him he needed more troops he refused to listen.When the insurgency was in full swing and things got bad all he's do is say "I don't understand why the Iraqi people are not supporting us?"Still not willing to listen about what was told to him by his generals:that more troops were needed and the Suni-Shiite feud negates most nation building efforts to date.This according to Bob Woodward who wrote 3 books on Bush.Only when the Republicans lost the senate in 2006 was he ready to listen and install Gates and proceed with the surge sugestion.

Such name-calling! But if you insist -- it it weren't for you "left wings" we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'd take Bush Sr., Bush Jr., Jeb, Barbara -- any member of the Bush family, or Sarah Palin, over the self-serving liberals that are ruining this country right now.

Maybe we should ask Bush if we can borrow some of his troups in Iraq.

Dave, seriously, you're wasting your time on the internet. You should go right up to congress and tell them your plan for victory in Afghanistan in person. I don't know why the military hasn't come looking for you already! I bet you play alot of RTS games...

Hey Zen - the reason you can sit where you're at writing your opinion also is because of our military defending your right to do so. Maybe you should go defend the Taliban since you obviously think Americans have it all wrong. Anytime you think you can do it so much better, please, feel free to leave.

ummmm JBT-1387957, you might want to go back up the thread here to 1.22 to see that ZenFreedom is in the US Army and is in Afghanistan right now fighting for our rights. I am not in the military, but I have been reading all of these comments and I gotta tell you, these stories that I have read about what our soldier's are facing every day 24/7 scares the hell out of me!

But what scares me the most is that they are also fighting for your right to post comments on here. But excuse me all the name calling and finger pointing, please are we in the first grade here? We are all adults and I am sure know how to act and carry on a civilized conversation and even debate with one another without name calling and mud slinging. I am sure that all the soldier's would much rather be home with their families than where they are now.

And furthermore, I bet you didn't know that there are scammers out there using the personal information and photos of actual military personnel that are fighting this war, to fund their scams, and who knows what that money is actually funding. I am sorry to say that I was a victim of a scam involving a SSgt in the US Army, and I am still trying to find him but with no luck. He is not the scammer only his information and photos of him and his son were used. Here these soldier's are fighting for our freedom and "thieves" are taking advantage of the American public with this information.

ZenFreedom...THANK YOU and all of the soldiers for doing what you do for me. I pray every day for all to stay safe and come home soon!

And sorry to get off topic...

The difference between now and then JBT is that 1.) There was no president who used his office to blatantly lie to the American people so that he could divert troops from the given mission to accomplish a personal agenda, 2.) more Americans actually served in the military during those times as opposed to running off at the mouth about what we should or shouldn't be doing while not making any sacrifice themselves, and 3.) those wars were fought for much different reasons than what is being done today AND THE TARGET OF A MISSION WAS IN PLAINSIGHT WITH A UNIFORM ON. I don't know, maybe Wikileaks has it, but I have yet to see a "taliban fighting uniform"... of course it could be that I'm just not looking hard enough...

Yo, "Zen" Baby ~ You call what O'Bama is doing not a "mission to accomplish a personal agenda"? Once a Muslim, always a Muslim.

That's a very well thought out response JBT, it shows an amazing amount of research done to flesh out the truth. The only reason we're still in Afghanistan is because bush put us here in the first place. There is no simple pulling out of Afghanistan. Least of all when the defense industry is making money hand over fist for both of these wars. These are all things that should have been thought about from the outset of the war instead of having a knee-jerk reactionary response and sending troops in with no plan for afterwards. People want Obama to fix in one year what a whole administration of people and ignorant Americans took 9 years to screw up. Even when a child spills a glass of milk, it takes longer to clean up the mess than it did to make it.

Yes, because that is exactly what the populace of Afghanistan is doing. Everyday they get up in the morning, praise Allah, grab their AK/RPG/+2 Sword of Smiting and go forth to find US & UN soldiers to wreak their unholy havoc upon... Some of you should get out of the house more often.

Maybe YOU should go over there and fight for their rights then? Get out of the U.S. house more often -- like permanently.

I'm over there right now JBT, and being that my father was in the military for my whole life and I've been in for the last 14 years, I'd say I get out of the U.S. house quite often. This is my 3rd trip on a deployment outside of the US, my last on was 15 months to Baghdad. Where have you been lately, other than the internet?

Hells Yeah, son!! And then we can go and Napalm Venezuela, Bolivia, hell just take the majority of South America (minus Rio of course)! And why stop with heroin? We can get rid of crack, meth, and Ecstasy if we just take out a good portion of the midwest US, and NY and LA! Because seriously we'll never win at the war on drugs with the way we're fighting it either. We need to cut the shackles on ALL of the people who fight for justice and the American way!

This sounding ridiculous yet? I hope so because that's exactly how the majority of the posts on the subject of Afghanista/Iraq sound. Yes, all of your "suggestions" sound about that plausible...

I love 1st Cav! Can't argue with the truth.

The 1st Cav. Do you know the significance of the patch? It signifies, the horse they never rode, he's turned backwards, the line they never crossed, the colors stand the same. In a war, they failed to hold the line, they ran, and in the unsubdued patch the background is yellow.

LoL

Bob-1984881 LOL About time someone put the poseur in his place.

Yellow is the cavalry color, the diagonal is the representation of a sword, the single horse head signifies 1, yellow and black signifies the transition from horse to steel.

Well said. And by the way, thank you for your service to this country. Personally, I vote for "Get out of the Way!:

JIMBO , for your information IRAQ is still a HELL hole. Which planet are you living on? As soon as we leave the entire region will collapse. Now we just created GREAT IRAN by our stupidity and the lack of vision. If we went there to get more cheap oil, we certinally failed at that too. Less oil is flowing out of there sience we occupied them. Chinese have been awarded all the oil contracts. So what does that leave us with? NADA.

QFMFT Drago. Anyone who thinks we "won" in Iraq obviously hasn't been there. No one is winning in either of these wars unless you count the private defense contracting industry of the United States. They're winning big time. Business has never been better! And as long both wars are on going they're guaranteed to be employed. I wonder how many of the people (including politicians) who got us into these wars and are vocal about not "cutting and running, git'r'dun" a.) have spent more than 30 consecutive days deployed to either warzone, b.) have an immediate family member that fits in the "a" scenario, or c.) even personally know someone who fits in the "a" scenario? I use 30 days because you have to be deployed in a warzone for more than 30 consecutive to be authorized a combat patch and that is what most Americans take as a symbol of knowledge of military warfare and/or expertise.

hahnow Criminal Israeli, thats what Israeli troops do, and thats what Israeli troops got convicted for.

No. I don't think they'll leave us alone. NO, I don't think this is "all Obama's fault." And NO, I don't think you ought to confuse the insubordination of a general officer to the Constitutional authority as "truth."

I do think you can NOT force people to bend to your will in a guerrilla war without MASSIVE destruction of a society. The atomic bombs worked in Japan because the were obliterated. The bombing of Germany worked, because they too were obliterated. Having said that, the cost of those wars in every sense was monumental.

In the case of Iraq and the Afghans, you have a massive dose of religious thinking that goes back over a thousand years. No, I do not subscribe to the idea that Islam is a "terror" religion, any more than I think Christianity is a terror faith because Tim McVeigh was one. You will NOT "convert" people to your way of thinking at the point of an American gun. These people are willing to strap dynamite to bodies of their children, and send them to the bus stop to blow others up. I promise you, this is Viet Nam all over again. A MILITARILY unwinnable war.

Ho Cho Mihn was interviewed once and was asked how he thought his little nationalist army could defeat the United States Army, the most powerful in the world. Ho said something to the effect of, We will lose many, many people. They will lose some people. But in the end, they will grow tired of the fight, and they will simply go home.

And that's exactly what we did. We will here, too. The question now is, after spending how much and losing how many military before that occurs. But it will happen.

Huey 1908 Bingo!

Let me add to your astute analysis. One of the most devastating military consequences of the WW2 attempt to invade the Japanese home islands, is the Kamikaze.

Kamikaze is a devastating weapon, making it almost impossible to defeat a defender. The "suicide bombers" are "kamikaze" virtually impossible to defeat.

LORD, Please bring my husband back safe from war, my baby and I are waiting for his return. Lord, I also pray for the rest of th soldiers fighting for our freedom- bring them back safe. I thank you every day of my life for my family and the strengt you give me to keep my chin up, and have strenght in times like this. Thank YOu JESUS !

Amen.