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Subscribe to RSSBen Hubbard reports for AP from Beit Ijza, West Bank:
The al-Ghirayib family lives in one of the stranger manifestations of Israel's 43-year occupation of the West Bank: a Palestinian house inside a metal cage inside an Israeli settlement.
Sebastian Scheiner / AP
In this photo taken on Feb. 9, a Palestinian boy stands in the yard of the fenced-in house of the al-Ghirayim family between the Jewish settlement of Givon Hahadasha and the West Bank village of Beit Ijza.
The family's 10 members, four of them children, can only reach the house via a 40-yard passageway connecting them to the Arab village of Beit Ijza farther down a hill. The passageway passes over a road used by Israeli army jeeps and is lined on both sides with a 24-foot-high heavy-duty metal fence.
The same fence rings the simple one-story house, separating it from the surrounding settlement houses. Some of those dwellings are so close that the family can hear the insults shouted by a nearby Jewish neighbor.
Sebastian Scheiner / AP
A Palestinian boy sits on a rooftop near the fenced-in house of the al-Ghirayim family on Feb. 9.
While the al-Ghirayibs' situation is unusual, Palestinians say it reflects the pressures put on their communities by Israel's more than 120 West Bank settlements.
The Palestinian Authority has refused to hold peace talks with Israel while settlement construction continues. The latest round of talks collapsed over the settlement issue in September, only three weeks after starting.
Some 500,000 Israelis live in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, occupied territories claimed by the Palestinians for a future state.
This week, the Palestinians directed their anger toward the United States after it vetoed a resolution before the U.N. Security Council condemning the settlements as "illegal."
The U.S. said it opposes settlements, but that peace talks are the only way to resolve such issues. The council's 14 other members voted for the measure.
"The Americans have chosen to be alone in disrupting the internationally backed Palestinian efforts," Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said.
Ahead of the vote, Fayyad visited the home with the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, who commented: "This is an inhuman life they have."
Sebastian Scheiner / AP
A Palestinian boy stands in the yard of the fenced-in house of the al-Ghirayim family on Feb. 9.
Sadat al-Ghirayib, 30, said his father built the house in 1978 on about 27 acres of family land, where he planted fruit trees. The Israeli army soon confiscated part of the land, he said.
The settlement of Givon HaHadasha was founded in the early 1980s. Al-Ghirayib said the army confiscated more land as the settlement spread. Today, it is home to some 1,100 Jewish settlers, some of their homes no more than two dozen steps from the al-Ghirayib home. Just a handful of trees remain.
In 2005, the army built a section of its West Bank separation barrier near the settlement. Israel says the barrier keeps out attackers. Palestinians say it steals land by cutting deep into the West Bank in some places.
The home was the only one in the village of about 700 people on the settlement side of the barrier.
Al-Ghirayib, who works in a local metal shop, said he and his family tried to stop the construction crews and the army detained them. When they were released, the cage was in place, he said. Security cameras at the heavy metal gate at the end of the passageway monitor all who come and go.
He said army officers have recently threatened to shut the gate, saying village children come in to throw stones at the settlement.
"They have cameras. If they see kids throwing stones, they can come shoot them," said his 74-year-old father, Sabri. "Am I supposed to guard the gate?"
Sebastian Scheiner / AP
A Palestinian boy rides his bicycle outside the fenced-in house of the al-Ghirayim family on Feb. 9.
The Israeli army did not comment on whether the land was confiscated, how the fence was built or if there are plans to close the gate.
In a statement, it said the Israeli Supreme Court was examining the issue of the family's land and that the army had "invested" tens of thousands of dollars to make sure the family can leave the home without coordinating with the army.
The neighbors are very close. On a recent afternoon, Gary Bar Dov, 15, who lives in a third-floor apartment overlooking the house, walked by while children on the inside gripped the fence and watched.
"It's very strange to live this way," he said. "It's strange, but you get used to it."
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We need to stop backing Israel. The U.S. should have voted for the resolution.
It is a horrible situation both sides have gotten themselves into. Israel needs to give back a ton of land, and the Palestinians government needs to start acting like responsible peaceful individuals. Both sides share blame for this childish situation.
Israel exists in an area where it's neighbors call for it to be wiped off the face of the earth. In response, they act in a strict, harsh way. The problems in that part of the world won't end till all sides can sit down and for a moment, put themselves in the other groups shoes. Until they actually understand each other, there will be no peace. After all, individual people on both sides of the fence aren't bad.
Since Israels creation. They have no choice but to act harshly to any threat because they are vastly outnumbered and need to deter any acts of violence against them. Just like a prison guard.
First Tunisia, then Egypt, next Libya, and PALESTINE !!!!
DEATH TO ISRAEL !!!
If the Pali's weren't such trouble makers and didn't insist on trying to force their dysfunctional ways and Dark Ages Death CULT mentality on the Israelis, everything would be just fine.
The Israelis have the only secular democracy in the region. Something that some of the Arab people are finally waking up enough to want.
The fact is, Israel has been just about the only Light of Functionality and Sanity in the Middle East.
Lebanon used to be that somewhat. Beruit was the "Paris of the Middle East" until they let the dysfunctional followers of the Dark Ages Death CULT influence them. Now, it has become Hezbonan. A real ghetto.
The reason that people hate Israel is because The Dyfunctional always hate The Functional.
Israel has had democracy since Day One and hasn't fallen because it has not adopted the Arab/Moo Slum Dysfunctional mindset.
Ghetto people can move to a Beverly Hills mansion. Three months later, they will have turned that into a ghetto. Same with the Palis.
There is a better way. The Israelis have found it and they aren't going to allow that to be destroyed like the foolish Lebanese.
I don't care what kind of democracy they have. Stealing land is still theft.
So that makes it alright to take other people's land huh?! Just because YOU think one system works better than the other? You're a Conservative Republican aren't you? Take from the little man and leave them with nothing just because you can! Pathetic.
Its a dog eat dog world, and Israel has bigger teeth. Until you give your land back to Native Americans, your a hypocrite.
Galoot,
Loot in the last four letters of your name escribe Israel!!! somebody else pays in cash i.e. U.S.A. and someone else pays in blood Palistine!!! You have no idea of what you are talking about so just stop!!!
Israel is not any democracy for the Arabs and after 50 years still doesn't have fixed borders nor a written consitution. If the Israelis win any more wars, one can be sure that the borders of Israel will expand. Israel is definately not any normal country.
And how many years did it take for the US, living in peace, with a common goal, to ratify a Constitution?
The Constitution of the State of Israel (ratified 1993)
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles/const-intro-93.htm
Heh, the US only stole land from the pesky natives for 124 years before we quit. The Israeli's meanwhile are securing land from either the original UN sanctioned borders or from 5 seperate wars. But hey that makes them the bad guys.
Meanwhile look at all the trash on the Palestinian side of that fence, you'd think if it meant so much to them they'd clean it up a bit.
i guess ur a jew
Very easy for individuals from a democratic nation to believe the Palestinian has the resources or the ability to do the things we expect a nation to do. When have they ever had a moments piece from the destructive ways of the Israeli government. Look at the story, the family tried to have a fruit farm, it has been taken little by little, people get tired of fighting just to survive, picking up trash then becomes the least of your worries.......they are concerned about food, shelter and RESPECT. Do you have some you can lend them?
What??? You don't even know what you are talking about. It's obvious that you think that regurgitating tidbits and sound bites from cable TV qualifies you as someone with a factual point of view and perspective. Have you ever even met and chatted with a Palestinian? I have. I've actually been to both Israel and the West Bank and spent plenty of time with Jews, Muslims and Christians living there. And regardless of my political bias and viewpoint in this situation, I am mature and humble enough to recognize that all of this comes down to human beings on every side just seeking a better life for themselves, their kids, their neighbors.
Israel secular? Are you serious?? Religious fervor and zealotry is one the core of this problem on all sides. Israel's entire policy towards it's entire Palestinian citizens is based on religion. The state of Israel was specifically established for religious purposes - to create a homeland for all people of Jewish faith? If you truly believe that Israel is a secular state, then I suppose you might even believe that Disneyland is an official state/country.
And yes, there are several Palestinian groups who are driven by Islamic zealotry. But there are so many more that are not. And what about the significantly large number of Palestinians who are Christian/Orthodox? Where do they fit in your myopic, two dimensional world view?
It's ignorant, uninformed people like who think that their bigotry, hatred and daily does of Fox News qualifies them as someone with a valid, factual opinion. I fully support everyone's right to express their opinion on any matter they would like, despite the fact that it allows idiots like you to spew venom and stupidity.
No one on this discussion denies the people from all religious sectors have valid points, and after living for 16yrs in Israel, do not need the news media to feed me tidbits to be able to form an opinion from the pain and suffering for generations infused in the landscape and the faces of the people. If you sincerely believe everyone has a right to an opinion and a voice, yours would be as humble as you proclaim. As with many governments, what is best for the people is not what is done, it is what is best to gain land because land is power. As you might notice from the article, the family has no power and
flocker" believes they are of no value. Very very misled, to say the least.
OG,
I have been over there too, but the fact that you are calling Israel a religious state shows that you truly have not looked into their Constitution or their leadership. I am not defending Israel's reactions, but the majority of the time they have reacted instead of instigating the action.
People talk about stealing land, then if you live in the US are you prepared to return your land to the native Americans, we both know the answer so until you are willing to do what you are demanding of Israel can we stop this stupid talk.
The way to peace over there actually is not as hard as everyone makes it out to be. Israel will never give up their capital any more then we would be willing to give up Washington DC, so if the Palestine's would stop the violence and give trying to take Jerusalem then there would be a settlement between Israel and the West Bank.
Gaza is a different story, either they stop the violence or next time they will find themselves relieved of their land. I do not know about you but they fire on Israel on almost a daily basis and we have a fit if they retaliate once every couple of years.
Yes by all means lets side with China one of the biggest human rights abuser in the world. How about we trade our vote on this for China and Russia not vetoing stuff that have do with North Korea and Iran. When it comes to the truth and justice the UN Security council is a joke. The US did the correct thing, with out this joke of a resultion the palestains have yet one more reason to stop with the stalling and talk face to face about peace and final borders. This mess would have been over 20 years ago if Palestains would have stayed on the Road Map they agreed to at Camp David and Oslo.
What would the United States do if Mexico Told Residents in Texas that they couldn't build on American soil because they want the land? If Native Americans came to you and told you to give them back the land you have lived on for over 50 years, would you?
Don't expect an answer from the Jew haters.
Steven, Mike is talking about the OTHER side. See, We Americans took the land of the Mexicans and the Indians, just like the Arabs took the land the Jews had a thousand years ago. So in this case, WE would be the palestinains, because it was our forefathers who took the land, starting a couple hundred years ago. The Mexicans and Indians would be the Jews in this case. He was attempting to get you to see the other side of the coin.
You guys need to brush up on your history. The US took no land from the Mexicans as the people of Texas declared their independence, fought a war, then become their own sovereign country. Texas did not join the USA for another 9 years. California, Arizona, New Mexico and a few other territories were bought from Mexico in the aftermath of the Mexican-American war - which was started by Mexico.
This doesn't remove the shame of our treatment of Native Americans, nor does it free us from criticizing Israel for treating families like this like dirt.
No, I am saying Colonial British = Israelis, and Native Americans = Palistinians. It was bad what happened to the Native Americans, but the world is a better place with United States, just like world is a better place with israel considering all the medical and scientific discoveries they have made.
Right. That's the disconnect. You can only see US as the Isrealis in this situation. You cannot look at that Palestinan farmer who's lane was taken and who now lives inside a cage and feel any sympathy. This is why the arab world distrusts us at best, and hates us most of the time. because we have no pity on what has pappened to the Palestinians. And because the leaders of the Palestinians started getting people to blow themselves up, we have to ignore their resons, because we abhore their methods.
I know it's hard, but just try to think about a situation where your land, being the land you grew up on, was taken way.
The jewish must of been trained very well by the germans in wwII. If they are so afraid of this family that they have to fence them in like animals they are not just plain stupid they are a bunch of morans like hitler. Stop using the palestine as a stepping child. Its easy to beat up on defenseless people remember history what goes around comes around.
How many homicide bombings have the Palestinians been able to commit since the fence went up? Guess it worked. If they would come back to the table, make an agreement, honor the agreement and renounce violence against Israel then maybe the fence can come down. In the meantime no one in their right mind would remove the fence that has been able to keep Israeli's safe.
davi, first of all not all people are the same... do you have any proof that this family have any intentions of harming? they are humans and shouldnt be caged in like that, looks like they are in prison and ontop of that if i grew up like that i would have jews as well. and like i said you want to say how arabs are bombing, what do u call what isreal did in gaza huh? tell me the ppl in gaza came to them and just for your information i had a cousin a father of 4 young kids murdered by a jew! and another young man the other night was slaughtered by a jew on his way home... so what you haveto say about that huh? should i start thinking all jews are cold blooded murders? think next time before you write something stupid!
davi, if the zionists want bombing by the Pales, then tomorrow morning's newspapers will be shouting about extremists bombing Israelis ... it is zero today because more important "news" is going on in the rest of the Middle East. Most of these so-called bombing werew fabricated by the Mossad to enflame the emotions of people who rely soley upon CBS, NBC, or ABC to tell them how and what to think. If the Pals werew really doing all of that bombing in the past, then why wouldn't they do so now while all of the turmoil is currently going on? Try thinking for a change instead of relying on someone else to put their thoughts in your head.
Patently false.
and you know this how ??? Citations, please (neutral sources).
Because the family of the bomber would celebrate his (her) death. They would throw a party to honor the martyr and all the neighbors would attend.
The Mossad is clever but that is even beyond their skills
Thank you MSNBC for having the courage to put this article on your site. Let's see how long it lasts before you are threatened with calls of anti-semitism and are forced to take it down.
How is it that a country can "confiscate" a farmer's legally owned land, put his family in a cage, all because they aren't Jewish, then call itself a beacon of democracy? Israel's inhumanity to the Palestinians is appalling. Shame on the US for not condemning it.
The same way Americans can steal land from the Native Americans, dump them on a reservation in the desert and claim their land, while being a beacon of democracy. Or attack Mexico and claim Texas land for United States. Just because Israel is the most recent example, doesn't mean it hasn't been done by all the nations criticizing Israel at some point in their own history. Talk about hypocracy, don't act like u would give your land back if some Native American came to you for their land back.
The Palestinians had deeds to lands they had farmed for hundreds of years. Not so for the nomadic native Americans who were the victims of many forces including disease and a clash of cultures. Not saying it was right, but there's a big difference Mikey. But since Israel never upheld the Oslo accords or the Geneva Convention, why would they respect a Palestinian's legally owned property?
And the land was Israel and ruled by Jews thousands of years ago. I mean, if you want to go back to the "Who had it first?" question.
It certainly wasn't the Dark Ages Death CULT folk that built both of Solomon's temples. Israel is full of archeological sites and evidence that predated any Moo Slums by many centuries.
BTW, there are no real Palestinians, they are (Trans)Jordanians that have been renamed as a PR move.
Galoot must be Israeli.
thatswhatshesaid* and Mike-3090642 - You both make extremely valid points.
None of this would ever have been an issue if the UN hadn't made the mistake of basically allowing the recreation of biblical Israel in 1948 at any cost, which had everything to do with our emapthy towards the Jewish People that had survived the wretched Holocaust we discovered at the end of WWII. We allowed it in good faith not realizing at the time that these Jews might treat the Palestinians the way that they have, which has been all too much just like what the U.S. Government did to most Native Americans.
BTW, the term anti-semitism is to be against any culture that is native to the Arabian Peninsula, not just the Israeli Jews. You must understand that any Israeli Jew who can trace his or her roots directly back to Biblical/Torah Hebrews are distant relatives of the Palestinians as well. Most Palestinians are descendents of Hebrews that converted to the young religion called Islam over a millennium ago.
Galoot-3079931 - Even at it's maximum, ancient Israel didn't cover all the same ground that it does today. The Judeans and Philistines controlled most of what we now call Southern Israel and West Bank and the Gaza Strip. For most of their history, the ancient Israelis occupied the Northern half of modern Israel and West Bank along with some of modern Syria's and Lebanon's territory.
thatswhatshesaid..... If the difference between right a wrong is a deed, then you must be a lawyer. We are talking about principles not pieces of paper. I was a history major, Western culture is based on colonialism. Greeks had colonies in Italy which became Rome which Became Europe. Europe had colonies in Australia, South Africa and America. Kicking out all the native people. Its a dog eat dog world and Israel has bigger teeth. Palistine needs to cut a deal or go the way of the Dodo (Native Americans, Aberiganies...ect) For any Western Nation to critize Israel is pure hypocracy and ignorance of their own history.
Modern Jews put themselves in this position since WWII. Up until the 1990s, the vast majority of Israelis were not born in Israel. Jewish immigrants are still more than half of their population today until another generation is born. The Jews around the world flocked to the UN created Israeli State. The small Jewish communities that existed along the Mediterranean coast up until the end of WWII lived peacefully with their Palestinian neighbors. The entire problem that we're faced with today began in 1948 with the very first act of the newly created United Nations (after the ratification of the U.N. Constitution of course).
GendoIkari,
What happened was highway robbery!!!The so called Israeli's would have never gotten this land if Hitler didnt do what he did. Britain and the USA had to do something for the remainder of the Jewish people in Europe and it backfired on them. Not the so called Jewish state which all Jews have a good life while the people they kicked out SUFFER! and SUFFER!!!
Wrong again Mikey. I was a history major too and what we're talking about is context.... . For instance, at one time slavery was an accepted practice in the US but we advanced enough to end it and try to repair the injustices where we are able. You still want to call land-grabbing Israelis colonists and settlers, justified by colonialism of another age. Time to wake up. Israel's teeth aren't big; they are tiny and they have only one friend left in the world. And that friendship is slowly and inexorably being eroded.
Richie - Kicked out? Last i checked there are arabs that live in Israel. In fact there are arabs that would prefer being Israeli citizens over citizens in a new palestinian state because they feel they are treated better. Now for some homework... how many Arab states dont let Jews own land or in at all?
Thatswhatshesaid........... I would consider Nuclear weapons big teeth... and Israels got em and no other middle eastern nation does. Israel defeated Egypt Syria and Jordan at the same time with less men and less technology, imagine what they can do now.
To your second point, history has no dirrection, your term ADVANCED is relative to ones opinion. What has the Arab world contributed in the field of science in the past 50 years. Israel is at the front of modern biology, chemistry, and physics. I would say that having Jews in Israel is an advancement to the people who use to be there. I would also argue that ADVANCED is also relative to what part of the world you are talking about, many middle eastern nations are basically Feudal societies.... Colonialism should be normal in such an area.
And slavery is still accepted in many nations around the world...
Just ask yourself this right or wrong doesnt matter. Is the world a better place with Israel there discovering all kinds of advancements in medicine and science, or with Palistinians doing nothing but practicing Islam?
Palestine was known as Palestine since the days of the ancient Persians according to Herodotus the father of History who traveled that area about 450 BC. The ancient Egyptians built temples and pyramids dating from 3500 years ago and many of these are still standing today. Now can you show anyone any type of temple these ancient "Jews" are supposed to have built ... where are they?
Archeim - I did not mentioned kicked out, of which the Paletinians were kicked out. Ask the current Arab Israelis how they are treated in Israel!! Your question of how many jews are allowed to own land in Arab states... Payback is a B@#$H. if you ask me they should be deported to there beloved Israel.
Richie - actually you did mention kicked out. "Not the so called Jewish state which all Jews have a good life while the people they kicked out SUFFER! and SUFFER!!!" (Richie-1 post 7.8) Arabs Israelis can hold political office in Israel. Including Arab women, who can also vote in Israel. There are hundreds of Arab schools in israel. Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel. Jews are made to serve in the army, arabs are exempt (unless they specifically want to like Abd el-Majid Hidr who received the IDF's Metal of Distinguished Service) so they wouldnt have to fight their brothers). There were also communities of Jews expelled from Arab countries prior to 1948.
Again people's grasp of history is both sad and shocking. The USA never attacked Mexico, and doesn't anyone find it ironic that excuses are made for Israel's treatment of the Palestinians because of their "terrorist" attacks, yet Jewish terrorist groups did the exact same thing in the run up to the creation of Israel? Yes people, there were jewish terrorists and they attacked both Arabs and Brits.
This does not excuse violence on either side, but if Israel was not founded in '48 do you think that the Irgun would have continued their attacks? Of course.
Simply put, regardless how much blame the Pals should shoulder, you cannot excuse treating a people in this way. We are humans, and we all should live by the golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"....
Richie: About a hundred years ago, this land was toured by American writer/journalist Samuel Clemons (Mark Twain). Clemons noted that his major overall impression was how empty the land was outside the FEW small townships and even fewer small cities. The truth is most of the occupants of today, both Israli & Palestinians, are immigrants (or descendants thereof) from somewhere else. The truth is, who REALLY has a right to this land is a complex question with no simple answer. But, it is not a simple ----- Palestinians: EVERYTHING; Jews; NOTHING ----- like some folks try to claim.
This is crazy. Why cage them in like this? Why not just kill them & take everything? It's not like anyone would or could do anything about it.
The Land does not belong to Israel, so they can not police it. If Mexico owned a piece of land in Arizona like this, u better believe the residents would want a wall put up.
I love how the article states nothing about why these fences and gates are up in the first place. In the event that their goverment (Hamas), stopped having its stooges sending missiles, or sending other people to blow themselves up in highly populated civilian areas... and accepted that the Israelis have just as much right to live as they do, and seek peace with their neighbors and sit down and negotiate peace maybe there would be no fences.
Dont get me wrong... i'm sure the families situation sucks, but blame is being placed on the result of the action, rather than the cause of the action.
Palestinian negotiators are probably the scariest job out there... because the second you declare peace, you end up like Anwar Sadat. Then again, an idiot killed Rabin too, and he was one of us.
We could all be doing so much better things than fighting. It's really sad.
That is typical of modern news reporting. They really don't like to discuss exactly how modern Israel came into existence because is was a very dirty deed the way it was done. Re-enfranchising one group of people at the expense of disenfranchising another group of people runs contradictory to what we claim to be all about, not to mention that these two groups basically share common ancestory (why do I always think of Star Trek: Insurrection at this point?).
Overall, it's no different than what the U.S. Government did to many Native American Tribes. It was the conceited idea that hey, you Palestinians can go live over here on these arid desert lands, and we'll take the good lands that can be farmed. Any of you that choose to resist us can have a bullet in the forehead. Welcome to the past sixty three years.
The one of us term you used shows your bias! you know nothing except take, take, take! from what is not your to take!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! I wish the Palestinians would rise against the Zionist Empire to take back what is RIGHTFULLY THEIRS!!!
Gendo - Even though i partly agree with what you're saying, i feel i should point out that i love your user id. My favorite Anime series of all time. That being said...
You did say "Re-enfranchising" and in that you are correct. What a lot of people forget (not saying you) is that Israel existed long before the UN so generously "gave it back." The term Palestinians was created by the romans when they renamed the areas of Judea and Samaria to Syria Palestina. Palestinians at that time were Arabs as well as Jews. Judea and Samaria were conquered by the Romans among other people, and so on and so forth. To deny a Jewish History to these lands and embrace only an Arab history is a crime. There was a Kingdom of Israel a few thousand years ago. Unfortunately a significant number of people believe that Israel is a new invention. A significant number of people once thought the world was flat.
Prior to the arrival of modern Israeli's the area was largely a desert. Due to work done by the Israeli's vegetation started to prosper. In fact, when Israel left Gaza they left fully functioning Greenhouses which could have been used by the Gazans to earn a easy living... and they destroyed them.
Obviously, I'm Jewish and I love Israel. I'd like there to be two nations living side by side in peace. Every government has faults, but despite Israel's faults... they are willing to sit and negotiate. The fate of the settlements included in negotiations. After the withdrawl from Gaza, all of the Jewish settlements were uprooted. It wasnt until the bombs and the rockets and the kidnapping of Gilad Schalit that the barrier was erected.
And yes... Britain really screwed up the Mandate.
P.S. Richie... i'm Jewish. Henceforth... one of us. It claims no bias. I also stated that the shooter was an idiot, and i personally wish that Sadat hadn't died. He was a courageous man who took a big risk, and as a result of it, Israel and Egypt have not been at war in 30 years. You on the other hand, may want to clean the foam off of your mouth. You are coming across like you are rabid.
@Archeim I appreciate your moderate tone and in a lot of ways you are right. But you are dead wrong about Gaza. Operation Cast Lead devastated their infrastructure and seemed to go out of their way to target schools, hospitals, factories, etc. But even worse, the blockade before and since ensures Gazan's can never rebuild, only exist (barely so).
Not sure if I can add links to comments, but the BBC and Haaretz have great lists of what can and can't be imported into Gaza. Again, regardless where you sit on the fence, you cannot look at this situation and not realize that Palestinians live under apartheid conditions.
GENDALKARI; I haven't done the research, but my guess is the reason you always think of Star Trek at this point is because (remember, this is just a guess, but I BELIEVE an educated guess) Star Trek writers drew their inspiration directly from Israli/Palestinian history, maybe not entirely, but in part.
@DJhomeless - i remember reading a newspaper article about how Jewish and Arab families were on a beach in Israel and there was a little Jewish boy who was drowning due to being pulled by the undertow. An Arab man ran into the water, swam out to the boy, and was able to save him and hand him to another person who got the boy to safety. Unfortunately the Arab man was then taken by the undertow and perished. The Jewish family and the Arab family became close friends due to the fact that the Arab man was a Hero and didn’t see a Jewish child drowning… but just saw him as a child… a human being. That Arab man is a noble man, and I frequently ask G-d to bless his family.
It was after reading that story and then meeting a Palestinian Christian girl in College, that made me drop stupid blind hatred.
Haaretz in my opinion contains articles written by people who are ashamed to be Jews. I like them to the Kapos of Germany in WWII. I tend to discount anything that Haaretz and the Guardian papers post on principle.
As for Cast Lead, neither of us was there. I don’t believe that anyone is perfect, let alone any military… and there were soldiers on the Israeli side that did some dishonorable things… and were punished for them. Hamas loyalists hid among and attacked from Civilian positions. Israel knew that High level Hamas members were hiding in hospitals, but to my knowledge, Israel did not strike the hospitals. I recall Hamas stole aid from the red cross/crescent. No military is perfect (again), but after being pounded by rockets and mortars day after day after day, that were intentionally placed near civilian targets… not to mention the IAF dropped fliers stating when the attack was coming and for all civilians to go to secure and safe locations. They warned the people, even risking the operation itself.
And more rockets hit Beersheba today.
Rockets/mortars stop
Real peace declared (Hamas/Fatah/Israel/etc) (no Hudna)
Negotiations happen
Fences dismantled
Palestinian State Gained.
Pretty simple.
This is what happens when Palestinians grow up to become "Black September" terrorists and slaughter Israeli athletes in Munich! I would fence them off from my community too, before junior gets his first AK-47!
I don't feel sorry for them, but I do wish they would pick up the garbage by the fence; it's an eyesore.
Zionist-isreali bigots are the scum of Mother Earth, always were and always will be nothing more than opportunistic war-mongering, religious narcisists, and greed-riddled land thieves.
Polish Ghetto. Compounded by theft of property.
Polish Ghetto was created by German jews, all who were 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 jewish.
Germany today and Germany yesterday is a nation of jews.
German jews tried so hard to prove that they were not jews.
Germany for the last 600 years has assimalated its immigrant jewish population.
Germany went to war against the world, its leaders including uncle Adolf moved to extreme lenghts
to prove they were not jewish.
This same extremism, has led to the caging of a palestinian home, and theft of their orchard.
The Jews were the rightful original owners of that land. They also defeated several Arab armies in a war to get it. A war the Arabs started and lost. The fence was recently erected to keep the Arab homicide bombers from killing innocent civilians. If the Arabs would negotiate in GOOD FAITH and STOP KILLING the fence would not be needed.
The land does not rightfully belong to the Jews! Please do not tell me about 1,000 years ago nor will you tell me that this was promised by the Torah! All land in the world was lost by someone to someone else! Never has any people asked for the land back like th Jews did! If that were the case than all of America should be given back to the native Indians! Or all of the former Yugoslavia should be given back to the Illiriyans which are present day Albanians!
Richie - so the arabs arent asking for the land back? They defintely lost it to someone else. You contradict yourself. If i shouldnt tell you about 1,000 years ago, why should i tell you about 60 something years ago. If you are going to go back in time and claim that people were there prior to other people, then you cant just decide that 60 years is as far back as you are going. It's rather hypocritical.
Try some research on Israel (copy & paste link in its entirety, including the portion with parenthesis - the link becomes broken with the parenthesis) ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)
And according to the Torah/Talmud/Old Testament/whatever you want to call it (Jewish history orally passed down by Jews for Jews for over a thousand years) written roughly 1,000 or more years after the rise under Kings Saul, David, and Solomon and fall under King Solomon's son, Rehoboam, of the nation of Israel (beginning with the tribes of Benjamin and David, later to include and assimilate all 12 tribes of Israel). Israel was created by the genocidal defeat/massacre of Canaan (a land belonging to the bloodlines of Noah's youngest son, , a great ancient world trade center and advanced civilization, described in the bible as a war/genocide "blessed by God" and "lead by God to victory". Here is a nice international world mape created during the Roman Empire in 43 AD that shows Palestine, Judea (home of the tribe of David and members of the other 12 tribes of Israel), Damascus, and Phoenicia all living harmoneously in adjacent territories to Egypt and Persia and Mesopotamia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Karte_Pomponius_Mela.jpg (click the bottom right corner of the map to expand it to read
According to real ancient history, not revised by Jews for Jews, Cannan was a civilization reknown for its purple die for clothing, same as Phonecia was, in the Mesopotamian valley who traded extensively with Greece, Egypt and Rome. The Canaan history can be traced back to prior to 5000 BC (that is 7000 yrs ago)
According to the Talmud/Old Testament/etc, Canaan was the land of the Hamites, the progeny of Canaan, son of Ham, Noah's youngest surviving son of the great flood. Hence, The House of Benjamin and House of David stole the land of their blood cousins by massacring one of Noah's bloodlines that issued through his grandson, Canaan of his son Ham (except for the woman-childs who had never know a man - virgins - that were retained as the "spoils of war" as sex slaves).
Apparently there is much warring, land stealing, rape, money changing and deception following the footsteps of the "Nation of Israel" (in particular, the House of David), not only throughout history, but throughout the Talmud/Torah/Old Testament/whatever you wish to call it. That seems to be the recurring theme of why they were thrown out of their "promised land', and almost every other nation on earth. It does NOT excuse what Hitler attempted to do, but is why the UN, immediately upon being created, arranged for Israel to be established - SO NO WESTERN NATION had to allow them, via guilt, to immigrate into their lands.
The establishment of the "new" Israel was NOT done for the Jews nor with any considerations for their bloodlines in Palestine who were now muslims nor for their Arab cousins through Ishmael's bloodlines who they consistenty quarreled with, but to keep them out of their christian based societies in Europe and in the Americas. Jews were still considered "Jesus killers" until after 1965's Vatican II decree where the Pope pardoned the Jews for killing Jesus. Israel was founded not to provide a safe haven for Jews worldwide, but to ensure christian communities remained safe from the influx of Jews. It didnt work ... and once again, for the nth time, history repeats itself.
Oh please. Stop with your myths and fantasies. Israel is stealing Palestinian land pure and simple, or "confiscating" as the article states. Look at the pictures! What modern country puts innocent families in cages, after stealing from them yet? What is your lie to explain that? Israel just wants their land, but the clock is ticking and the day is coming when they will have to give it all back.
Americans did it to Japaneese Americans during WWII. We took their properties and put them in prison camps.
Japanese? Dude, ever visit an Indian reservation?!
Actually Israel wants security. Some of the Arab citizens want it too. Tell me "thatswhatshesaid" why did Israel withdraw from Gaza? When they first withdrew and uprooted thousands of people, prior to the Gazans launching Quassams which prompted the barrier... so again, this question is to be answered in the mindset of "Prior to the barrier."
If Israel wants land so badly... why did they agree to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza?
This particular case is sad. I doubt that particular family harbors ill intentions. Unfortunately people around them do. If a real peace happens in our lifetime, those fences will come down quicker than you think.
Both sides would like to stop burying family members before they've lived a long life and die of natural causes.
Israel gave up Gaza because they basically bombed it to ruins!!!
Disengagement - 2005.
Cast Lead - 2008
Guy who needs to brush up on his facts - Richie-1
that sounds right, davi !...in 1947 the U.N partitioned the area in 2 parts one for Israel and one for the Arabs to recognize their historical claim also.. Israel accepted and was voted in as a new member of the international community and the U.N ..the Arabs refused and instead have waged a constant war of terror mass murder and genocidal threats against Israel --of course the fences, wall ,the security the blockade of terrorist entitiies are necessary.. and a very strong military.. this could have been all avoided if the Palestinians accepted a state alongside Israel....you are right davi!.
Archeim, they left Gaza because it was too expensive to maintain the 8000 israelis living there with over a million Palestinian refugees. That it was done for any altruistic reasons is another myth. Now it's just a bigger cage than the one in this article, but a cage nonetheless. No aid ships are allowed in and the Palestinians are not allowed to use their port for commerce. They are being slowly strangled when they aren't being strafed for pleasure by Israeli jets. Out of frustration they lob the occasional projectile that hurts no one. In retaliation their children are slaughtered and their homes destroyed. The death toll ratio is more than 10-1, but the Israelis still proclaim themselves as the victims. Another myth.
Mike, how you can see putting Japanese in camps during WW2 as analagous is beyond me and pretty much invalidates any argument you've made.
U said "What modern country puts innocent families in cages, after stealing from them yet?"
And I responded with during WWII US imprisoned their own Japaneese American Citizens, stole their property. It is a counter example.
Thatswhatshesaid - i find it amusing that whatever you disagree with you declare a myth. I heard it differently, that Israel wanted to increase security and also international status, due to the fact that there was no one willing to negotiate peace with at the time. The reason for the port closure and the airspace closure is those harmless rockets and mortars you're such a fan of. The ones that on the off chance they do connect with something, has connected with houses, residential areas and schools. Otherwise it causes post traumatic stress disorder in children and adults. Sderot in particular has a large number of bed wetting children. Not to mention that prior to barriers and fences, it was common for idiots to strap bombs on themselves and detonate in public places. Like school busses. Movie theaters. Cafes. Clubs. Schools. Passover Seders. (that was a massacre) from 93-08 there were 786 people killed by suicide bombs... others were wounded.
Que the fences... it's been a while since it's happened in Israel. When the Gazan goverment stops acting like bloodthirsty animals, and stops directing some (not all) of its people do stop acting like animals... maybe then the "cages" will go away.
Until then, i suppose Israel will have to keep supplying their electricity and water.
thatswhatshesaid.................................... My point is this.
First, Althought what has happened to to Palistinians maybe unfair. Life is unfair, and these things happen through out history. To single out Israel is hypocritical.
Second, Althought what happened maybe be unfair. The world is a better place with Israelis there. Israel has done more with that land, which has no oil, than the Palistinians could ever dream to do.
Third, Israeli inovation and contributions to the world in medicine and modern science has been more than any Arab nation can claim in modern times.
Although it may not be fair to the former natives. The world is a better place with Israel.
"The world is a better place with israel" ..... You've got to be kidding!!! It's the source of so much of the world's political tension, and so very much suffering.
Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, North Korea.... ect. No thatswhatshesaid, the source of so much of the world's political tension comes from crazy leaders blaming others for their nations problems instead of blaming themselves in order to stay in power.
The world is a better place with Israel, I did not say that Palistinians are better of with Israel. Much of the tension comes from Islamist dictators using the Jews as a scape goat for their own peoples problems. If the palistinian people allowed them selves to live under Israeli rule, they would at least have jobs. Hamas is worse for the palistinians than the Israeli government. I don't recall Egypt, Syria, Jordan, or Lebanon taking in Palistinians and trying to help them.
The Arab world blames on problems on Israel, but when they are in a position to actually help the Palistinian people, they do nothing.
Meanwhile, Israel has agreed to allow 300 Palestinians living in Libya to come to the West Bank in a gesture of goodwill.
Not that MSNBC will report this news, it runs contrary to their anti-Israel agenda.
No other Arab nation stepped up to the plate!
And Hamas? Today they lobbed a katyusha rocket into Israel.
Not that you will see THAT on MSNBC either.
Just for the record, from an outsider to this fine debate, Mike and Archeim backed up their arguments with specific points. Thatswhatshesaid just spewed bs, calling stuff lies and myths. I'm Israel-nuetral in this discussion, so know that wasn't stated because of my alignment with or against Israel.
Now continue your debate, and I look forward to an insult from thatswhatshesaid....
Thank you both Steven and Steve-o. I appreciate the compliment. I personally would just love a lasting warm prosperous peace between Israel and all of its Arab neighbors.
People against Israel ignore the fact that Israel does exist and it is not going anywere. The question is what do we do from here out. Until the Palistinian people accept the fact they are not getting their country back, and the only way to profit is through free trade with Israel and the West, they will always have a poor slum country.
Palistinians need to realize that they have nothing to bargain with. They need to accept to best deal from Israel that is on the table and move on... or go the way of the Dodo, like native americans and aberiginies when faced with colonialism.
I think thatswhatshesaid ran away after my above counter argument supporting why the world is a better place with Israel.
thatswhatshesaid....Israel got out of Gaza completely against the wishes of its settlers who protested to stay. Sharon, the Israeli Primeinister at the time, pulled the settlers out against their will, to restart peace negotiations with the Palestinians. Cost had nothing to do with it. Instead, the newly ethnically cleansed Gaza, was used to launch rocket attacks into Israel, and send Homicide Bombers. Then, when Hamas got elected in Gaza, the international community and the US and Egypt boycotted Gaza. It has remained boycotted to punish Hamas and encourage the residents of Gaza to elect a less radical government. This has not been successful because Hamas does not really care what Gazan's think and how they suffer. I don't expect peace protests in Gaza any time soon like we saw in Egypt.
Len isn't it a bit strange that with all of the nationalistic revolts going on in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, etc. that the evil Palestinians wouldn't have shot a few rockets in support of these uprisings?
Please don't tell me you believed that the Pals were actually shooting these home-made rockets do you?
Quite the contrary, with the amount of time Hamas has fired rockets into Israel. I would find it odd if rockets were not fired.
R.Osbon, I don't think the Pals are evil at all, just used, abused and very misguided. The Pal's like most of the Arab world is raised on hate propaganda that would make Nazi Germany proud, so naturally hating and killing your Jewish neighbor makes sense to them. Since Gaza is run by a terrorist organization (Hamas) with the express intent of destroying the country of Israel, and since Hamas just recently ousted its rival (Fatah) through a bloody revolt, I do not think the Gazans will get to protest. Hamas is too violent and extrem in their views, they will shoot the protesters like in Libya or Iran. Plus, Gaza just had an election a few years ago and they elected Hamas, so maybe the people of Gaza are happy with the way Hamas is running the place. I think the Pals in the west bank may protest and if they stay peaceful, they may get some reforms, cause Fatah is amenable to political pressure to change.
You need to keep up:
Grad rockets fall on Beersheba neighborhood
By JPOST.COM STAFF AND YAAKOV LAPPIN
02/24/2011 00:08
Katyushas cause extensive damage, are first Grad launch since Cast Lead; IAF strikes rocket launching cell in northern Gaza Strip.
Two Grad-model Katyusha rockets struck Beersheba for the first time since Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip over two years ago.
Well Steven if the Mossad used bombs with USA markings the jig would be up as they say ... so these home-made bottle rockets without any guidance system are shot off into empty neighborhoods and the IDF get a propaganda bonus, and thus more American zionists send more money to support the helpless Israeli settlers. Its a win-win situation with the mindset of the so-called christian today, but the times are a-changing. Why do you drag up something that was 2 years old from the Jerusalem Post as any creditable evidence ..
Ralph, you're funny.
First you state that:
"isn't it a bit strange that with all of the nationalistic revolts going on in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, etc. that the evil Palestinians wouldn't have shot a few rockets in support of these uprisings?"
Now, you admit you were wrong.
Except...you refer to Grad rockets as "home made bottle rockets".
These rockets are genuine, military materiel. They have 50 Lb warheads. Their range can be more than 20 miles.
Some "bottle rocket"
Then, you refer to an article posted TODAY as "two years old".
I'll say this....you are definitely a stretcher! You are really reaching.
I've been reading your posts for a long time, we both know what you're about.
No the truth is the Mossad needs the Pals as perceived enemies of Israel to continue alarming the American zionists so that continued funding for Israel will not be interrupted. Without continued American support and funding, Israel will dry up and blow away in the Middle east winds, so these repeatedly absurd bottle rockets are fired into vacant neighborhoods and fields and presto, the zionists renew their calls for more funding. Once one sees the bigger picture of how zionism works in the overall scheme, it is really very simply a dog and pony show with the smoke and mirrors added to fool the dumb yokels who believe anything they repeatedly see on TV.
What am I about Steven besides pursuing the truth. Hopefully you are doing that also .. life is too short to engage in any agenda besides the truth. My hopes and fears do not ride on any nation, individual, theology, wealth, or politicial agenda.
I agree- cut the funds off and military aid to isreal mayby they"ll realize they will have to try some humane way of trating people and have more than one freind (usa). How can all these other countries be so wrong? the us should have not vetoed that last vote.
Good fences make good neighbors.
P.S.--If any of you good people think that one more historical argument or one more historical find will cause either side to admit its error and relinquish all claims, forget it. This matter will be solved through negotiation or force of arms.