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Sam Dean / AP
Supporters of a Sons of Confederate Veterans rally wave flags in protest at Hopkins Green in Lexington, Va. , Thursday, Sept. 1, 2011. About 100 people gathered before a City Council hearing and possible vote on the proposal, which would limit flags on city light poles to the American, Virginia and Lexington flags.
Sam Dean / AP
A passer-by watches a protest at a Sons of Confederate Veterans anti-ordinance rally held at Hopkins Green in Lexington, Va. , Thursday, Sept. 1, 2011. About 100 people gathered before a City Council hearing and possible vote on the proposal, which would limit flags on city light poles to the American, Virginia and Lexington flags.
Sam Dean / AP
Ray and Ruth Parker, right listen to speakers at Sons of Confederate Veterans at Hopkins Green in Lexington, Va. , Thursday, Sept. 1, 2011.
From AP:
LEXINGTON, Va. — A rural Virginia city where Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson are buried voted to limit the flying of the Confederate flag on poles on several downtown streets.
The 4-1 vote Thursday night by the Lexington City Council allows only the Virginia, U.S. and city flags to be displayed. Personal displays of the flag are not affected. Full story
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Racism is still rampant - what a waste of time. Grow up and read a book folks.
I really can't understand the desire to prominently display the symbol of a state's worst disgrace. Poor people fought for the rich people's "states rights" propoganda, and died in their thousands so a few rich people could outsource their jobs to "property." If that was not embarrassing enough, after boasting that one southern solder was worth "10 yankee hirelings," they were crushed into submission, in what can only be called a humiliating debacle. And yet they wave the reminder of their biggest mistake. Astonishing.
I, by the way, come from Texan and Tennesee stock. I'm still personally embarrassed that the south fought for a few rich white slave-owners, because my relatives would have been poor, subsistance farming, southern cannon fodder.
You should move to Minnesota or Iowa or some other yankee state...
There is enough history rewritten already. Respect for the veterans on both sides is in order here.
theCavalier - You must be less than 30 years old and studied from textbooks in which history was reinvented for the sake of political correctness. Read a few good, legitimate history books that have not been distorted by political correctness. You'll find that there are numerous factors involved that initiated and perpetuated the Civil War. BTW, the South was never "crushed into submission" anymore than the Nazis were crushed. They lost after a long, difficult struggle in which countless lives were lost on both sides. The South was predominantly an agricultural society. The North had the advantage from the beginning because most industry was located there.
As Billy Yank said, respect for veterans on both sides needs to be retained. Add to that the fact that we have Freedom of Speech in this country, which includes the right to fly any flag that one deems appropriate.
Don't these people realize that freedom of speech and expression does not exist in this country for white people, that white people are the only racists out there, and that all white people were once wealthy slave owners? It's preposterous that one might consider that the civil war was not fought solely about slavery and that people can honor veterans of wars only if they are not white. Scratch the surface people and dig a little deeper. Really. I know a lot of racists who are not white. I also know a lot of people that honor veterans of wars who happened to be on the losing end.
Reading all of this is really scary.
That is not the issue here. People can still fly the Confederate flag all they want on their own properties. Their "free expression" is not affected at all.
This limit is regarding flying the Confederate flag on city properties. Confederate States of America is long defunct so it is not an actual government entity nor can we trace its origins back to "Old Glory". As such, why should the city display it? It would be as ridiculous as asking them to fly the various Texas revolution flags.
The heart of the Democrats showing their colors. Hmmm.
Not at all. I'm a democrat and I wholeheartedly support flying the confederate flag because I believe in the heritage of my history. If you recall, Lincoln was a republican and most southerners were democrats at the time.
Wow I never realized how bigoted the residents of Virginia are. No wonder these bigots voted for Cantor.
What a sorry group.... hey did you forget that you lost the battle & the war??? Stupid is as stupid does.
Hannah - I actually worked in Virginia - Leesburg and my fellow associate had a poster of Grant giving his sword to Lee - times have not changed - get over it you lost - the North won - you want to fight the Civil War all over again when brothers fought brothers - how many dead 600,000
There is a lot of history behind the Confederate Flag and we should never forget what thousands of men women and children died for. It is our right as American's to stand up for what we believe. I don't see anyone making a fuss over the Mexican flag that gets displayed on our soil and to me that should be against the law. In the second picture in the article, the one with the girl in the car as the picture was taken she looked scared like she was in the wrong country. How would you like to be her? She would have no problem flying her flag and I'm sure does. Grow up people. No one is calling Governor Perry a traitor because he would like to succeed from the Union.
So its OK to burn an American Flag and a Bible but let's not upset a minority by burning a koran or not having gay day. What is good for 1 is good for all deal with it. This PC bs is destroying America. If you do not agree with the Constitution leave this is NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU. There is NO reason for you to cry about it FREEDOM OF SPEECH is NOT ILLEGAL "yet" Although I know you are trying.
Cut the crap! The confederate flag is not now, nor ever was, a "racist" emblem. Read history books written before 1965 and you will see that he Civil War was fought over State's Rights. The issue of owning slaves and slavery in general was secondary to most Southerners. Political Correctness has limits that end with the Constitutional right to Free Speech and Freedom of Expression. I can tell you that there are far more black racists in this country than there are White racists.
Confussed-1578043
"No one is calling Governor Perry a traitor because he would like to succeed from the Union."
How is Perry not a traitor for wanting to take Texas out of the Union? That falls pretty squarely into the definition of traitor.
Actually I'm pretty sure this doesn't count as a freedom of speech issue and here's why. They're restricting their flying on city light poles. Those light polls are owned by the state and they can decide what is and isn't allowed on them in the same way that you can decide what flag to put inside your own house. They're not restricting the flying of the confederate flag on your own property, they're restricting it flying on city property. That's why this isn't really a freedom of speech issue.
Cactuscat: The southern states secession's were entirely about about keeping slavery - and even expanding it to new territories and states. Read the articles of secession from the various states, preserving and expanding slavery are always in the first paragraph and easily identifed as the principal reason for secession. History books used in the South after 1865 corrected what was a myth among the southern states that the "War Between the States" was about states rights. It wasn't.
Flying the Confederate Flag is tantamount to Treason. I live right up the road from Lexington and can tell you as many people hate it as love it. The Confederate Flag represents NOT wanting to be an American. It is not about Heritage. That is BS. And cactus, you need to read a real history book. The war started over the fact that Southern slave owners were not permitted to take their slaves to the North. They wanted the US government to force the North to accept Southern slaves. If it is a state issue, it was certainly not on the side of the south.
Who cares what the Civil War was fought over? The bottom line is that those who fought for the South were traitors who caused the deaths of over 600,000 Americans... their graves should be pissed on and their memories should NEVER be honored.
The South will rise again!
(sh!t floats)
and get their ass handed to them again. Get over it losers, south couldn't do it. Will Never do it. You have to have brains to fight a war, and the southern education system ensures a northern victory in every way.
Utterly false and delusional statement. Just what version of history were you studying? You may want to read the "Cornerstone Speech" by Confederate VP Alexander Stephens. He made the southern perspective quite clear within it.
Secondly. The Confederate economy of the time is an agrarian one, dominated by cotton, tabacco and sugarcane exports. The vast majority of these agricultural products were grown in plantation. Guess who worked the plantations? To abolish slave labor is to fundamentally change the southern economy and that is something the wealthy plantation owners (the backbone of the Confederacy) wanted no part of.
Hmm, given that whites outnumber blacks 6 to 1 in this country, I can pretty easily deduce that your statement is yet again false without even needing to dig up statistics or polls.
I abhor the use of the confedeate flag -- it is meant to taunt and maginalize minoities and is and has become a racist symbol. However, this ordinance, unlessit applies to the flying of all flags, banners, etc, seems like it cannot pass consitutional muster. We still have freedom of speech in this country.
If the Supreme Court has found that the disgusting Westboro Baptist shurch members can picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and spewwith their homophobic hatred at the murning families, how can we ban the flying of a flag becaue of its symbolism?
Someone should go out at 3 am and put up Lybian flags on government buildings...throw them for a loop.
What a warped group of citizens in Virginia. No wonder Cantor is their representative.
The southerners to me are true American's because they fought for what they believed in. One of these days there may be another civil war in this country and it will do what the south tried to do. You could say we are at war now, the poor, middle class against the rich and guess who is winning? Ask Boehner, I believe the unemployment rate in his state (Ohio) is 10.2%. I may be wrong correct me if I am but I'm sure it is above the national average.
Still LESS than nevada and cali
What an idiotic bunch of Americans who were taught by the Public School system in the United States! No wonder we have inept, contemptable cowards elected to public office like Obama, Reed, and Pelosi
What the hell does this article have to do with Obama, Reid, or Pelosi?
Nothing that's what. You just dragged their names in here to froth at the mouth about them. This is about a Virginia city making a rule.
Slavery?
The south lost, and well they should have.
Of course, if we could have a do-over, I'd let them go...would save a lot of state welfare money for the northern states.
"Confussed-1578043
The southerners to me are true American's because they fought for what they believed in."
Slavery?
What did Union Soldiers fight for if not what they believed in . . ?
You sound more confused than "confussed" . . .
Ohio States unemployment rate for July was ~ 9%
The southern army was an example of almost all armies. It was made up of poor working class men who owned no slaves. These men simply were fighting for their country which then was mostly one's state.
The war was about a long brewing problem of which new states in the west would be slave states and which would be free. The free states wound up with one extra state ensuring a majority in the senate.
When Lincoln was elected who was thought to be of anti slavery empathy (I don't think he really was) and he never suggested freeing slaves until after Gettysburg.
The war was fought and the south eventually lost due to lack of resources. They did have far better soldiers and generals. Nobody argues this point except those with no knowledge of the war.
The men who fought for their homes in the south should be remembered as patriots. The war began a tradition of service in the military that continues today. The US Army has always been composed of one half southerners. While being the great grand son of a man in fought in the Tennessee infantry for the elite rich slave owners to protect their energy (sound familiar?) I still respect the sacrifice of those who 'served' their country. Remember, it was traitors who fought and won the revolutionary war. They accepted slavery for the most part also.
As for the flags. If the sons of the Confederacy wanted to fly a flag that didn't elicit such a negative response, they could use the first flag of the Confederacy which does not contain the stars and bars. There would still be a negative knee jerk response though. I do admit, many of them are racist (not all) and I will not be a member.
My Grandfather served in WWI, my Father WWII, and I served during Vietnam. My family is just an example of the 'service' tradition founded in that war. We serve our neighbors, not political ideology. I will not apologize for my Great Grandfather's service. I will celebrate his service.
The war started because of the Kansas-Nebraska Act which allowed states to decide to be slave or free and disgruntled pro-slavers in Missouri invaded Lawrence, Kansas and flooded their election with bogus votes and when that didn't work, they killed people and burned the town. So, don't give me this B.S. that they weren't fighting to expand slavery. When the power of persuasion didn't work for Quantrell and his thugs, they opted for the "persuasion of power."
Those so-called poor without slaves saw an opportunity to curry favor with the slave owners. Slave owners did business with the local farmers and merchants. Those same people would make jobs for the rest who fought to keep slavery. The South was also allied with England and made agreements to help divvy up whatever northern states and holdings they captured should they win. Their stated goal was to destroy the North and sell it to the highest bidder. None of them had any hardship with continuing the enslavement of other human beings at any cost. That was the so-called "right" they were fighting for. The south's independence was the cover story, nothing more. So long as people were being enslaved, any other "motive" for the war was a lie. You don't for your independence while absolutely denying other people, theirs.
correction- You don't fight for your independence while absolutely denying other people, theirs.
Actually you do. If you're fighting for your independence, then the enemy you are killing are not only being denied their independence, they're also being denied their lives. BTW, the american revolution was fought while americans owned slaves, so it's a moot point.
Diversity is only permitted if it's the correct diversity according to the currently popular political views. They probably wouldn't be bothered by Mexican flags. But, hey, Lincoln slaughtered more than 100,000 people seeking their independence from the tyranny of the North, just so he could dominate the South and the North could dictate which flags could fly. Freedom of speech only applies if you're in control, or, as Huey Newton said, you only have the rights you have the power to enforce.
What of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of enslaved people living in the South, and their independence from tyranny? What about the fact the South attacked Fort Sumter? The Confederates had absolutely no moral high ground.
The article makes it perfectly clear that no restrictions are being proposed to limit personal displays of the Confederate (battle) flag. The proposed law only affects such displays on public, city property.
@Jose Villa Lopez
Perhaps you can take some comfort in that they just outlawed flying the Gay Pride Flag and the Christian Flag from a public pole as well. Yep nothing but flags that are non-controversial and that are the least likely to offend some of the townships citizenry. But hey, people can fly the flag of their choice on their own property, just not public property.
By the way, that whole "War of Norther Aggression" thing is so 1950's, you disagree with the Civil Rights act too? When defending a war predicated on the desire to perpetuate human enslavement, you automatically cede the moral high ground.
Jose- Lincoln slaughtered nobody - get your facts straight - this yes was a war of the North versus the South but it also was a war of the South wanting cheap labor - Blacks that were treated as chattels - women that were at the mercy of the white plantation owners - who separated families - who whipped them if they did not produce- Jose have you ever whipped an animal? When you post here be sure of your facts and Lopez - would you want your wife or children torn from you and check their teeth and their bodies to be sold to the highest bidder - and maybe even you!
itsd about Heritage......after al thier is a NEw York Yankees.....why not an Atalanta Rebels.....oh i remember now the Braves moved to Atlanta cause Milwaukee was to broke to suppoert them. They moved south and flourished.
The NY Yankees are a privately owned enterprise,the owners can call them anything they want and citizens can then boycott them or not over it. It's called having a choice,all the way around.
Why don't you try your stunning logic out on an actual group of sports teams out that are called the Rebels instead of a conjectural one like the Atlanta "Rebels"?
One does exist you know. The University of Mississippi calls all it's sports teams the Rebels.
How do you think black residents of Mississippi feel about their tax dollars being used to support a state institution of higher learning that uses a sports nickname that is offensive to many of them? Or doesn't THEIR heritage count in your eyes?
Who's dictating which flag to fly? You say the North but you're full of ****. If you even bothered to read the article you'd see it's a city in Virginia. I.e. the South.
God there are some clueless people who just spout unrelated garbage in their posts aren't there?
Milwaukee ended up with the Seattle Pilots.. Steve in Tennessee. I don't remember any rebel team in the majors.... But duly noted! Johnny Reb is evidently still alive and well, yes?
It's about time the flag had it's day. It is to be honored, however it does project the growth of all Americans in respecting all human life regardless of race, creed or color. It actually shows that some of the south have grown beyond it, and the love it, regardless of what others might wish to taint the flag with.. Bad English, I know.. However, I'm glad some can still fly it. They recognize their difference, and that's what America is all about. I salute everyone who is different! I love you!
They should be flying the flag most remembered. That would be the white flag "We surrender"
If that's true then we all should be flying the white flag north and south...remember vietnam?
My great-great grandfather, for whom I am named, fought under that "other" American flag. He commanded hundreds of men who did not own slaves, but who did believe in the right for the individual states to maintain self-determination for those powers not enumerated in the U.S. Constitution. Brig. Gen. James Lawson Kemper was grievously wounded leading the right flank of Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg, was paroled and later commanded the Invalid Corps in defense of the Siege of Richmond, and was elected as the first Governor of Virginia following the Yankee-imposed "reconstruction" of those states formerly engaged in the War for Southern Independence. Do not tread on my heritage and I will not tread on yours!
You mean, own slaves?
dang bust good post, watterwilid! I was raised "northern," But I was also raised by Irish parents who understood bigotry even though they were legal citizens. In spite of that, even though I was raised, and am... a Democrat. Or have been when I have been voting. I worry about you folks.
What is unique in the United Sates (are we actually united against bigotry???) is that we RESPECT opposing views. Why can't you see the difference between "respect" and "bigotry"???
I admire the demonstration. OK, I am a Northerner as regards our Civil War. BUT I defend our Republic and democracy. (We are a "republic" btw! not a political "democracy.") I defend actively the Bill of Rights which are part of our Constitution.
I defend YOUR rights to defend YOUR opinions. What I do not defned are how you attack... some even juvenile... against those who might not agree. You provide no defense of your opinions except "name-calling" which is primary to losing any argument.
They are Americans. We are Americans. Dammit we are ALL the most fortunate people on this planet!
Live it! Be it! Accommodate it, if you must. But,
Be proud of it! and, particularly...
DO NOT DEMOLISH IT!
It wasn't an "other American flag" it was a flag of treason,not part of the United States. It should not be flown without treasonous penalties.
Of course it is an AMERICAN flag! The Confederate States of AMERICA were made up of states from the United States of AMERICA!! And you need to educate yourself -- treason is NOT the same as secession, which was LEGAL.
Waterwild - great I also loved my grandfather - however he came to this country fleeing from the Bulsheviks - what makes you better than I? Should I raise the Lithaunian flag? Or should I embrace the flag of the United States ? You tell me there are a million stories out there - Germans who settled New Jersey and Dutch who settled Minnesota, how about the Italians and Irish especially the Irish who became the fire fighters and police who were denigrated - get off of it I don't give a diddly about your grandfather nor should you about mine but we are after all "The United States of America" if you don't like it then what?
SecondSight1
You really need help. Government facilities should not be able to fly any other flag other than the flag of the government that they represent. This has nothing to do with the personal freedoms of toothless drunks. If you truly fight for the rights of the individual you would understand the difference.
The confederate constitution is an amusing read, and includes such memorable lines as :
Definitely a flag to be proud of, Virginia!
Barbara - My, you have a huge chip on your shoulder. There is nothing in watterwild's post to even suggest that he thinks he is better than you. Get a grip!
Saying you are proud of your ancestors involvement with the confederacy and soldiers serving in it for the South is like saying you are proud to be Jeffrey Dahmer's child and you paste his picture all over for all his victims and their families to see. No difference my friend. You are pasting pictures (flag) of their killers, rapists and torturers of African Americans for their families to see and remember. No wonder they hate you so! I think a good attorney could argue justifiable homicide if one of them harmed you for it.
And to say you are proud of your obviously yankee ancestors who fought for the north is the same thing. Do you not think they raped, pillaged and plundered the south? Ever heard of Sherman? You should be ashamed.
My great-great grandfather, for whom I am named, fought under that "other" American flag. He commanded hundreds of men who did not own slaves, but who did believe in the right for the individual states to maintain self-determination for those powers not enumerated in the U.S. Constitution. Brig. Gen. James Lawson Kemper was grievously wounded leading the right flank of Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg, was paroled and later commanded the Invalid Corps in defense of the Siege of Richmond, and was elected as the first Governor of Virginia following the Yankee-imposed "reconstruction" of those states formerly engaged in the War for Southern Independence. Do not tread on my heritage and I will not tread on yours!
Hey kid I'm named after my grandmother - Barbara - what makes you so special? How many children in this country were named after their grandparents ? What arrogance to think that you are special!
Hey brat my uncle was on the Bataan Death March were he died - remember WW11 - were was your family? My other uncle was in the PT Boats - on Normandy - where was your family? Don't give me your crap life goes on- and you are still living a war that is history - talk to the families who have lost their sons and daughters in Iraq and Afghanistan - get a grip - who really gives a diddly who are named after it is what you do today
barb you know the civil war was not about slaves , it was about money . the same as all wars .
greg3
Umm... slaves were property=money
Watterwild:
My grandfather was German and was in the Wehrmacht during WWII. He was not a Nazi, he was simply a quartermaster in the army that represented the national German policy of Jew extermination and the suppresion of all other social phenotypes that did not conform to the vision of the National Socialist party. Erwin Rommel was acquitted of war crimes at Nuremerg, having fought a brilliant campaign in N. Africa and earneing th name "Desert Fox". This does not mean that it is in any way, shape, or form honorable or to be construed as "honoring heritage" that I fly a Nazi flag in front of my home. Your assertion that as a society we should not shun the flag of the confederacy and what it stands for is patently absurd.
it does sound like you missed the part wher Field Marshall Rommel died from being hung on piano wire , becuase he was linked to a plot to kill hitler right ? i would prefer to give him the benfit of that doubt .
Mea Culpa...it was his AfrikaKorps that was never accused of war crimes. Apparently his troops reflected his command style and his view on warfare. I stand corrected. It does not change the jist of my comment however. Thank you for pointing out my error however, very astute. =)
Apparently he committed the Western version of Harakiri after being given a hangman's choice by Hitler. Almost a Samurai death, if you will.
no piano wire ; Rommel was forced to commit suicide...to save his family...
MEA CULPA 's ASS you where going somewhere to your liking with it george onbly ya forgot there might bve more than one person here that can read and prefers to readf History
My friend, I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong, which is apparently more than you can do. And I have done so. The fact is, it does not change the substance, or the veracity of my post. I salute you for pointing out a minor, and completely un-pivotal part of my post that was incorrect. Bravo.
Effing rednecks need to shut their twinkie holes. Your side lost. Get over it.
look up the term "redneck " sometime MR it does not mean what you think it does .
@ sugerba LOOK up the term Redneck its easy and i wont think your quiete as much as a fag , if you know what the taunts you sling actually mean
So, us southerners are all rednecks huh? Apparently you must be awfully ashamed of the father of your country then in as much as Washington was a Virginian and a southerner, not to mention Jefferson, Jackson and many others. Is this because Northerners weren't bright enough to lead the country at the time? Were they the effing rednecks then? Perhaps you should buy some teeth, learn a bit of history and stop making proclamations from your beer stained easy chair before you spout off about things you know so little about.
Since this is in fact the Rush Limbaugh network, don't even pay attention to these losers.
Your side lost a long time ago..... Move on....
The Lexington council passed a resolution or ordinance. the protesters who want to fly a rebel flag can fly in in their own yards. everyone will know where they live.
This is censorship, pure and simple. Just because some people don't like the flag should not mean that it is banned. I am not a fan of the rainbow flag and what it stands for, but I sure don't think it should be banned! "Diversity" is seemingly only good for select peoples, which is obviously hypocritical...and therefore is not true diversity...
Yeah and they won't fly the rainbow flag on a government building there either. Jesus. Did you even read the article? They're not going to fly it on public buildings. You want to fly it in your yard or hang it in the back window of your pickup truck feel free. Nobody's stopping you.
here dudette i am gonna fly my familys flag this weekend . come try to stop me . bring ammo you will need it .
The confederate battle flag has no place in public display except in the case in some musty museum. Until the south gets it they will be viewed by world as backward and racist.
The difference, gold bars, between the rainbow flag and the Confederate flag, is that the rainbow flag does not represent the subjugation of millions of people, murder, rape, and the ruination of multiple forthcoming generations. Much like the "swastika" or what is traditionally known as the "Nazi Flag" is illegl in Germany, this symbol of outright genocide should not be legal here. Do you see the difference?
There...in Germany...they seem to have learned from their mistakes by outlawing Nazi propaganda. Here in th US, some seem to think that our crimes against a race of people (much like the German's crimes against the Jews) are "heritage". That word, heritage, minimizes and makes "quaint" the real meaning of what we have done to the black population. Simply translate "black" into "jew" and "swastika" to "star and bars" and you have the same thing.
George - you now have become my hero - I couldn't have said it better - I lived for a time in Virginia in the 70's and in the 90's nothing has changed they are so afraid and I don't now why - what are they clinging to and not moving forward? Hell I'm not young yet I see my grandchildren, my children and hopefully my youngest great grandchild being able to move forward - what holds these people back? Lack of education? Lack of self worth? I really don't know - lack of identity - what the hell is holding them back?
Barb my dear, I live in Virginia now after having moved from the North. This notion of "heritage" in VA strkies me as a particularly cowardly way of deflecting even a hardened racist's own guilt. It's quite obvious that this "flag" (I choke on the word "flag" as much as i choke on "flag" when I see the swastika on a piece of cloth flown from a pole) is absolutely tantamount to a proliferation of the same ideals it stood for back in th 1860s. Anyone that even attempts to justify it is simply kidding themsleves, and lying to us.
George were in Virginia?
Just North of this fine US city of Richmond, VA. I emphasize US because some seem to forget where we are....lol.
The beaches are lovely there as well. I've visited and I like the people and the sights. But I for certain don't like glorifying what Confederate culture stood for. Celebrate your family's history I say. Fine. Nobody's vilifying anyone for that.
But not on public government buildings.
EXACTLY. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm not proud of my grandfather's personal struggles during WWII as a German soldier...but you'll not find me using his experience to justify the mission of the Dritte Reich either.
WHAT your dad was a nazi soldat and now you wish to tell us what ????? what ???? A damn Nazi .
heh...Greg....thanks for joining the thread. Read my other posts...he was a quarter-master. In response to some posters that said that their Confederate forebears never killed any Black people I simply stated that my grandfather also did not kill any Jews, much like 3/4 of the German Army. The point was in the comparison. If you are new to Newsvine, you need but click on my name and it will bring up my recent posts that will explain my logic. Thank you sir.
PS: Had he indeed been a Jew-killing Nazi then I would think it would only lend even more credence to my posts, not less. Your attempt at an ad hominem is much appreciated =)
dont be trying to change the subject...like i did george . your daddy was a werhmacht soldat ? so i am supposed to respect him right ? SPEAK
No, you aren't. Read Greg...read. A) Grandfather, not father and B) I wrote that I respect him for his personal struggles during the war. As a common soldier, he was a simple man and was in fact forced into service. Many of the videos you see of the cheering crowds greeting Nazi dignitaries in cities were either staged propaganda, or forced onto the poeple by fear. If you don't know how the Fascist governemnt in those countries worked I'll enlighten you. Each district has a Nazi party directorate. That directorate was charged with keeping their district in line with Nazi policy. They received their information from a heirarchy of informers. Each district was divided into sections, all the way down to a particular street. there was a Nazi part offical designated to every street in every city. That official would then make "house visits" to ostensibly chat it up with the citizens. what they were really doing was looking for even the slightest sign of dissent or malcontent. Therefore, a large majority of people were indeed completely unhappy with thier government but had no choice but to comply for fear of being sent to the arbeitslager. Go read Greg...go read.
My great-great-grandfathers all fought for the South. One a Captain from Missouri, another a private from Virginia, another a private from Kentucky, and another a private from Tennessee. None of them owned slaves. None of them killed any African-Americans. They all fought for their states, their families, their homes, against a federal invasion of their sovereign states. The war was much more than a fight to free the slaves. It was about a tyrannical government that wanted more money, more territory, more power, and a more centralized government...and we're all reaping the benefits of that pious victory today... Yay...
You are still seperating the message from the action. again, I will counter your point by using my personal example. Since you seem to want to repost the same thing over and over, maybe by my doing so it will drill into your head. My grandfather was a quartermaster in the German Wehrmacht.He may not have directly killed Jews, but the cause for which he fought whether wittingly or unwittingly, was an evil cause that resulted in the genocide of millions. Your forefathers may hav been honorable, but the cause for which they fought was most undeniably dishonorable. You can mitigate that by saying that it ws a fight for sovreignty, but that is a mere simplificaion for what the true meaning of the fight was. The FACT is, that the Southern states were fighting for sovreignty to protect their financial independance, yes. But that financial independance was based on a GROSS violation of human rights...ergo...the right to own slaves. That perceived right was the catalyst for the loss of millions of lives, and the stunting of many generations of black people's socio-economic standing to this day. Call it what you will...defend it how you will, but it was no better (it was in fact worse) than the Nazi extermination of the Jews.
no george sorry you will not . in this case you and barb whats her face jackson are not correct . MY Family Fought and died here you ass . we did not have to go and die to stop your dads empire dream . please do tell me how i am supposed to listen to either one of you people . you dont know your own history and seem to want to tell me mine . HOW Dumb might you and barb be ?
I'm happy your family fought and died here Greg. It does indeed give you a historical background upon which you've established a rich familial history. I appreciate that, I really do. I don't discount the fact that your family has an honorable history, you'll never catch me saying otherwise. You cannot however confuse your family's PERONAL history with their GREATER history as a whole. This is why i brought up my grandfather. His personal history will not cloud my judgement as to the the grander social history that revolved arround his experience. He was good.....the social cause that he happpened to be caught up in was not. there's a distiction there that you've missed. I'm sure in real life we'd be able to sit down and have drink as a matter of fact. However you've made some assumptions about me and others that are patently false. Did you know I am a veteran of the US army, having served 9 years? I was deployed after 9/11, and even though I am no longer a service-member I still work for Uncle Sam as a public servant? Heck, even if I hadn't done all of those things, I'd still be fully entitled to every bit as much American history as you my friend. This is where I believe you've got it wrong. I'm not dumb...I just see our history...American history in a way that you do not. I personally believe that you are wrong about it lol, and you CLEARLY believe that I am wrong, there's no doubt about that.
still taking sides..... .notices the north accusing the south then ...claiming thier side won hypocrites.
truth one..the flag being flown was a battle flag not flown over the confederate capital
truth 2....only because the north having industry did they win.....its noted in history the southernors actually outfought the northerns.
truth 3...if the south had won we would all be under the axis rule and germany would have won.
truth 4.....when the industires in the 70 and 80 fell apart up north ....the Northernors came down South looking for work.
truth 5... the emancipation proclamation ONLY freed the slaves in the South....was stilll in full swing in the North
truth 5.........it was what about states rights.....southern states were not being allowed equal representation.
now look it up( bet most dont cause thier ignrance leads thier mouths) but i am betting the rl bigots here are those who do not know history and are still fighting the war...on both sides
Why is the flag racists when its ok to calll whites honkey and white boy but the N word is not allowed except among blacks to each other.
racism lives in the North and South....I have friends in NYC who are far more racist than my Southern friends....they hate the double standard in this country
The race card is played way to much.....now you trolls may attack me...that is if the Bridges you live under were not washed away by Irene
BTW.....Tn was split into as to North and South so do not assume i am with the Confederates, but the democarats and republicans these days are acting much like the north and south from back then leading our country to doom......thier own agenda being more important than the good for us all.
Lincoln preserved the Union for good cause and for the mutual benefit of us all.
Your side lost a long time ago.
It's not racist to state that historic fact.
Get over it.
hello, where is the message i just typed?
Racism is so obvious.
Yeah Fred I'm with you - dam a Black man has no right to be so smart - when we are so dumb
Mom was born in Vermont, Dad in Tennessee, I was born in Washington, D.C., same for my first born daughter.
My other three daughters and seven grandchildren were born in New Zealand.
I now live in Old Town Alexandria, Virginia and proudly fly the flags of both nations.
I just ordered a flag of the Confederate States of America and will proudly fly all three.
PROUD OF MY HERITAGE, PROUD OF MY FREEDOM and PROUD TO SAY "DON'T TREAD ON ME"!
Are you proud of the historical suffering, generational stagnation, subjugation, and murderous intent that the one represents? Guess which one I'm talking about. It's not the US or New Zealand flags, just to throw you a hint. Got any German in you. If you do, may as well throw up a Drittes Reich Flagge while you are at it.
Do you not understand freedom of speech?
I've only ever voted for two presidents (both crooks) the 37th and the 44th...
hows that nazi thoing working for ya george .?
Oh you should be asking Yankiwi that not me Greg =) I'm not the one flying the flags of oppression.
The United States of America has been killing my people for hundreds of years. See Tecumsuh's War.
This land is our land.
ALL FLAGS ARE FLAGS OF OPPRESSION...
Hey George, google "George Linclon Rockwell" and learn about FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
and No, I do not have any German blood. But if I did I would also buy another flag.
If a piece of cloth scares or offends you so much just go hide under a rock.It is about heritage of Southerners.Oh yes I do mean of all colors because there were many who lived and worked together and still do.Just to be honest those who thought that it was other than the North wanting control of the resources of the South.I say that you are backward and misinformed idiots.You are just parroting the propaganda that you were taught.It is not a racial issue but a pride issue.Half of my family are of the opposite color and I still care for them...
Actually I'm pretty sure this doesn't count as a freedom of speech issue and here's why. They're restricting their flying on city light poles. Those light polls are owned by the state and they can decide what is and isn't allowed on them in the same way that you can decide what flag to put inside your own house. They're not restricting the flying of the confederate flag on your own property, they're restricting it flying on city property. That's why this isn't really a freedom of speech issue.
The Civil War was fought over slavery, whatever contemporary racists may say (and write). It would have been impossible to get hundreds of thousands of Northerners to fight and die for the cause of liminating states' rights. As for the South, its interest in states' rights was confined to one right - the right to buy, own, sell, beat, and in many other ways mistreat other human beings.
BTW, two of my American history heroes are Ulysses S Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman.
Exactly Friend of the Dead.......the Confederate apologists will forever and always cry that the war was never about slavery, but about sovreignty. However, they are being obtuse. Much the same way my 12 year old claims I'm "oppressing him" when I grounded him, because I'm mean, not because he A) peed on the toilet seat and then let his mom sit on it B) did absolutely NONE of his chores and C) Yelled the word "faggot" at one of his friends outside when he thought no one was looking. But I'm mean. It's the same thing with these Confederate apologists.
no itr was NOT , it was fought over STATES Rights . lol just like the one we are about to have . it was about MONEY .
Greg I have determined that you cannot read. Financiall solvency was directly related to slavery for the South. The ability to hold slaves as property was the keystone of Southern economy...or so they thought. the fact is that slavery had a distinctly NEGATIVE effect on the Southern economy even though no one realized it. By the time the Civil War came around, the reliance on slavery had caused a lack of upkeep with other parts of the world in terms of industry, transportation, and general technological progress. It was, in the end, this almost self-destructive dependance on slavery that actually caused the South to lose the war. Do some reading Greg...knowledge is power.
thanks george i do appreciate your kind thoughts . i also have been watching you defend your fathers whermacht service . its ok they where just following orders . LMAO i have also been watching Barb Offer you everything but oral sex . no accounting for taste .but as i said read the books dont just look at the cover sir . you might be surprised what you might learn
Would these be the same Grant and Sherman who ruthlessly embarked on the genocide of the indigenous people of the continent after the Civil War, Friend of the Dead?
Some heroes . . .
If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson. I wish the south won the war. Look what happened after we freed the blacks. Mob actions, car jackings, murders, kids need to be put on a leash. I dont like the slavery part but our ancestors put them in thier place. Thanks Lincoln! DUMBASS! Leave that beautiful flag alone. Deep in some of our hearts we did win and put up a dam good fight for 4years.
Mike C.
You sir, have just made the rest of us a little bit dumber for even reading your comment.
miscreint, I second your comment!
Mike C. Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. ~Abraham
Lincoln.
Sir I am as Southern as the day is long & I like it that way. Remember this, "white blood" isn't the only blood that was spilled in every war from then until now that has afforded us OUR Freedom. With your words you have disrespected every American Soldier that has lost their life serving this nation, many of them were Black Americans that had White Brothers in the service that lost their life & vice versa. You have disgraced Southern heritage, & it's comments like yours that keep the Confederate flag misunderstood.
Virginia isn't saying that you can't fly the confederate flag on your own property. What is the big deal here? There is no reason a flag of a non-existing nation should be flown on public property.
No nations flag on U.S. soil is flown higher than the U.S. flag. If it is on a foreign embassy, it is allowed, because that is considered that nation's soil.
I see Mexicos flag flying high and proud over the U.S. flag here in California. They even fly the U.S. flag upside down. So what you think about that. Piss on mexico. The mexican only come here for the money. Once they make enought money they go back to mexico. Illegals don't want to live in America they to ravage the U.S. Thank you Demos.