hopefully the content will not be edited.

So far, five complete scrolls from the Israel Museum have been digitized for the project at this stage and are accessible online, where users can search the scrolls for specific passages and translate them into English.

Why don't you go right now and check? :3

I remember seeing some stuff on TV about this maybe 2 months back. With these scrolls, they are going back and correcting the mistakes made in the current Bible. Though we aren't going to see changes that make murder or adultery morally legal, they have been some noticeable mistakes in the current bible that are being changed. Since some people get very detailed in the exact wording/phrasing of the texts, this will perhaps change the way they know certain scripture.

Some will surely resist any change to the Bible they grew up with, but it is always better to have the correct knowledge than mistakes in something as important as the Bible.

Queen Elizabeth II version, God is a dude

I guess you do because you took the time to read it and comment on it.

They`re too scared to even go down there and take a lookie see for fear of sinking their own boat

Absolutely!

TomTom,

"Every time Israel is criticized for its treatment of the Palestinian People (in this case denying them statehood at the UN this past week), be sure something Biblical will be discovered to blunt the criticism."

The Dead Sea scrolls were disovered long before there was any "Palestinian" issue. All they are doing now is making them available on line to the public in general, and I'm sure this project has been in the works for a long time. It isn't something you can do overnight.

This is one of the most important finds of modern day history. Why must you put a negative spin on it.

Mickey - They were found in 1947. Are you saying there was no "Palestinian issue" at that time? I believe history notes otherwise.

Tomtom72- Your kidding... Right?

"The Dead Sea Scroll was written by a bunch of dead men. And not by God."

...so was the Bible, Torah, Qu'ran...

laughingcat,

"They were found in 1947. Are you saying there was no "Palestinian issue" at that time?"

That's right, not in the modern sense of the term at least. The Palestinian issue had just begun to develop around that time as a result of what the Israelis call the "War of Independence" that the Jews fought against the British Mandate. Many Arabs, but not all, left what became the state of Israel around that time. The Arabs' version of the story is that they were driven out by the Jews; the Israeli version of the story is that most of the Arabs left of their own free will, having been frightened by Arab radio broadcasts from other Arab countries into believing that they would be massacred by the Jews if they stayed. It's a very controversial topic historically, with some arguing in favor of the Arabs' story and others in favor of the Jewish story. Take your pick! I would prefer not to touch it myself.

...so was the Bible, Torah, Qu'ran...

That's right. Paul is responsible for the Bible and Christianity. Muhammad is responsible for the Qu'ran and Islam. And Ezra is responsible for the Torah and Judaism. Don't kid yourself, all the religions are man-made.

TomTom,

"Paul is responsible for the Bible and Christianity."

That's a nice try, but it's not quite accurate. Paul is responsible only for the letters attributed to him that are contained in the New Testament, which are only a fairly small part of the Christian Bible. Some have claimed that he was the real founder of Christianity rather than Jesus Christ because his letters have had such a profound impact of the development of Christian theology, and in that sense their claim is true. But whether Paul or Jesus Christ is the real founder of Christianity is more a matter of faith, in my opinion, than of secular history.

Come on Mickey; the Christian Bible is made up of two components: the old and the new testaments. The old testament is of the Jewish religion and that was not altered; therefore it is only the new testament that Christians are really responsible for; and Paul and no other person wrote it.

TomTom,

I'm afraid your understanding of both the Bible and of Christianity are a bit naive. The entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, is of Jewish origin. All the writers of the New Testament, without exception, were Jews themselves, including Paul himself who liked to boast that he was a "Hebrew of Hebrews", meaning a very devout member of the Pharisee sect of Judaism. Over the centuries Christianity began to diverge more and more from its Jewish origins as Christians developed their own theology, but both the Bible and Christianity itself are of Jewish origin. And Paul did not write the entire New Testament. Even the most skeptical of Bible critics know better than to suggest such a thing.

The entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, is of Jewish origin

Mickey, did I ever say that Paul wasn't a Jew? I know very well that he was a Jew prosecuting the early Christians and was blinded on the road to Damascus. I know he was a Jew Mickey.

By the way, can you name any other author of the New Testament other than Paul? No.

TomTom,

"By the way, can you name any other author of the New Testament other than Paul? No."

No? Try Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Peter or Jude or James. Which Bible have you been reading, anyway? It certainly must be a different one from any version I have ever seen.

I think TomTom marches to the beat of a different drum.

Dave,

"I think TomTom marches to the beat of a different drum."

That's funny! I'm beginning to think so, too!

O.k.

fgh,

"O.k."

Well, there's no arguing with that at least, friend!

No? Try Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Peter or Jude or James. Which Bible have you been reading, anyway? It certainly must be a different one from any version I have ever seen.

Mickey, who wrote the book of Acts; James; 1st and 2nd Peter; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John? Mickey, don't be fooled by the different names given to the various books of the New Testament. It's almost like saying that Genesis is the author of Genesis; Revelation is the author of Revalation, or that Job is the author of the Book of Job.

TomTom,

"don't be fooled by the different names given to the various books of the New Testament."

I am not fooled by anything. It is you who are fooled if you think all the books of the New Testament were written by the same person, Paul. Whether or not they were actually written by the people whose names they bear does not matter. One thing is perfectly clear: They were not all written by the same person. Have you ever heard of style? Everyone has his own peculiar style of writing. A persons style of writing is almost as clear as a means of distinguishing one person from another as are his fingerprints. Style involves many different factors such as a persons choice of words (vocabulary), his sentence structures, the way he organizes his thoughts, what he chooses to include in his writing as well as what he chooses to ignore, his use or non-use of idioms or slang, and which particular idioms he uses, etc. etc. Experts at New Testament Greek can tell at a glance that the styles of writing in the various books of the New Testament are different, meaning that they could not have been written by the same person. For example, the writer of the gospel of Mark is very simple, straightforward, and down-to-earth in his style of writing. He simply describes the events of Jesus life as he recalls them happening. The author of the gospel of John, on the other hand, is very philosophical, mystical, and metaphysical in his writing. He is not content with simply describing the events as they occurred, he is always looking for and trying to communicate the theological meaning behind the events. While I could not get into the matter of style in the New Testament without writing an entire book about it, the differences in style between the various writers of the New Testament is one of the methods scholars use for distinguishing which books were written by which authors, whatever the actual names of those authors might have been. If you have ever read the New Testament, even in an English translation, it should be obvious to you that one person could not have been the author of all the books contained in it.

If man wrote do not walk off mountain cliff or you will surly die..It kind of reminds me of people like you that would do it...LOL

The significance in the Dead Sea Scrolls was that they confirmed the reliability of the texts we already had. For example, the earliest copy we had for Isaiah was from the early 10^th century. This book, which contains many prophesies pointing to the coming of the Messiah, was naturally under large criticism. People after Christ could have easily altered the text to conform to the events surrounding Jesus to make them appear as fulfilled prophesies.

The Isaiah text found in the Dead Sea Scrolls was found to be dated 125 B.C., and the astonishing part was the fact that this text written over 1,000 years before our earliest copy of the time proved to be 95% textually identical. The remaining 5% were things like spelling errors, and did not threaten the content of the text itself, confirming its reliability. Since the Messianic prophesies in Isaiah and other texts were written before Jesus’ time, they were, in fact, real prophesies.

Now one could easily argue that the disciples then altered or made up parts of their story to conform to the prophesies in the Old Testament (written before Jesus’ time). That is possible. However, one would have to examine their testimonies written in the texts that make up the New Testament. Take the genealogy in Matthew and Luke for example. These listings of Jesus’ heritage were written to prove that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of Adam’s seed defeating Satan (Genesis 3:15), Abraham’s descendant blessing all nations (Genesis 22:18), and that he was from the royal line of King David (Jeremiah 23:5). Sure, they could have easily filled in whatever gaps they needed, but the reason that Jesus was born in Bethlehem (prophesied in Micah 5:2) was because Joseph and his betrothed Mary had to go there for a census that the ruling Roman Empire had declared. In that time and culture, people listed their names as “son of this person, son of that person, etc.” If anyone from that time wanted to disprove Jesus’ genealogy, they would have gone to Bethlehem and looked him up. However, this was the second reason why Matthew and Luke wrote such details down. They included so many names of people and places as references for their case. Just like a journalist or an attorney, they made sure they got their facts straight. If someone had gone to Bethlehem, they would find Jesus to fit the same lineage as Matthew and Luke had written.

If you really dig deep into it, you’ll find that these are not “just words of men.” They are so much more.

K-man,

Although I agree with what you say I have one small nit to pick. According to Paul (Saul) Jesus was not related to Joseph thereby not related to David.

The story of the immaculate conception rules out Jesus being Joseph's son and therefore not of the line of David. Mary was a Hittite and related to John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin. The Hittites were the priests. The idea that Jesus was of the line of David indicates he was to be of the ruling class, thus 'King of the Jews'. John the Baptist was to be the spiritual leader of the Jews but Herod put an end to that.

Paul and his immaculate conception story twisted the two into one and, IMO screwed up a really important event for everyone. Paul was trying to make the story of Jesus more palatable to the people of Rome by using mythology they were already familiar with; virgin birth, death on a cross, resurrection and ascension into heaven as a god a la Mithra.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade but there are multiple contradictions in the New Testament. I'd love to be able to read the scrolls in order to get to the truth.

Dust thou art; to dust returnest; was not spoken of the soul.

Longfellow

How many chances did you get to follow Jesus according to His words? Knowledge can be obtained from books that man wrote or obtained from books that the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit wrote. You may think small and look to explain things of this world, but God already knows all that, He created it. His word says the intelligence of man is foolishness to Him. The point here is to seek God and maybe He will clue you into all you need to know before you go to the grave. There is a plus side if you follow Jesus, the grave here on Earth is the beginning of your beautiful eternity for you.

To Ad'M: Thanks for asking a great question! Yes, the Bible is God's living word, even in our electronic world. The greatest commandment is: To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength. I would encourage you to make your questions of "who is God?" a front burner issue in your life. Be sure that God knows your heart and the plans that He has for you, don't settle for what the world has to offer. God wants you to live life to the fullest and your best days are yet to come! God bless you.

Can math books, biology books, or history books validate or invalidate the Standard Model of quantum physics?

And no, you are not being blasphemous, you are trying your best to sound intelligent and failing miserably.

Please.

Ad'm,

"At the risk of being blasphemous, (I apologize to all who maybe offended), can these documents validate or invalidate the Standard Model of quantum physics?"

The Dead Sea scrolls have nothing to do with quantum physics; they have everything to do with Biblical research and archaeology, subjects in which you obviously have no interest. That's fine. Everyone has things he is interested in and other things he has no interest in. Your interests are your own concern, but you should at least realize that there are many who are deeply interested in this subject, whether they are Bible believers or just scholars interested in archaeology and the history of the human race. If you are not interested in the subject, you should just pass on without comment.

Well written Bri, anyone who can read Isaiah 53, and not feel His presence in those words, has been blinded from Him.

I see I have offended some people so let me rephrase my question in a somewhat more Biblical terminology.

For those who can understand the language in these documents and have study them, are there any references in the documents (and not in interpreted derivatives) of the concept of the Divine Trinity which was first used in Christian theology in the 3rd century?

Divine Trinity: "Of God, and His Word and His wisdom" ... "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit" .. Christine definition of God as three divine persons distinctly coexisting in unity as consubstantial or homoousian.

Ad'm,

"are there any references in the documents (and not in interpreted derivatives) of the concept of the Divine Trinity which was first used in Christian theology in the 3rd century?"

Of course there are no references to the doctrine of the Trinity in the Dead Sea scrolls. These are Jewish documents; not Christian documents, and the Jews do not and never have believed in a doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, the word "trinity" does not occur anywhere in the New Testament either.

ad'm, you should have just let it pass without trying so hard once again. even worse (let me rephrase: "stoopider") the second time, ol' chap.

Ad'M,

Mickey is correct in that the Dead Sea Scrolls were before Jesus' time, so there had been no reference of the Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit.

If you're doubtful of the Trinity itself where 3 divine persons distinctly coexist, I've had thoughts about that myself. It does seem hard to grasp, and the best answer I've come up with is found in science itself. Any matter has its own triple point, where at the perfectly precise temperature and pressure, all 3 states of matter (solid, liquid and gas) can coexist. Ice, water and steam can all be present, distinctly, but they are all still H2O. The Trinity is like this. Given the perfect conditions, Father, Son and Spirit all distinctly coexist in their roles, but they are all still divinely God.

I don't know if my comparison is completely accurate or not, but it's the most suitable one I've come across.

K-man,

"Any matter has its own triple point, where at the perfectly precise temperature and pressure, all 3 states of matter (solid, liquid and gas) can coexist. Ice, water and steam can all be present, distinctly, but they are all still H2O."

That's an excellent analogy! I have often thought of it exactly the same way when trying to understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, since the doctrine states that there are three persons in the Godhead but all three persons are of the same substance, just as ice, water, and steam are three forms of the same substance. The Catholic Church teaches that the Trinity is ultimately a mystery that our minds are not capable of grasping fully, but your comparison to water, ice, and steam as all being one substance is about as close as anyone can come.

K-man

Yes, that is in the macro world of physics but I was wondering if there are references to guide some "light" into the micro world of quantum mechanics.

We do have the proton and neutron which comprise of 3 quarks but I doubt there is any link to the Divine Trinity. If any thing I think Trinity could be a clue for the mechanism of quantum confinement.

I was more interested in shedding some "light" whether there are any references for the inner structure of the fundamental quanta, electron, i.e. is there any thing smaller than Planck's scale?

Ad'M,

I have not studied Quantum physics, so my ability to compare its plausible connections with that of studies in the theological sense are scarce to none.

Whether you're honestly seeking an answer or merely asking a question that you know the answer isn't in the Bible in an attempt to make the Christians/theologians on this board stumble (no offense, but it happens), then I'd have to say for God to give us all the knowledge about everything in existence, how things work, reasons behind both logical and philosophical dilemmas, etc., we would need more tomes than there are grains of sand in the Sahara. And the reason we don't/can't know such things (yet), would likely be in one of those hypothetical tomes.

Ad'M,

"Yes, that is in the macro world of physics but I was wondering if there are references to guide some "light" into the micro world of quantum mechanics."

Why would the Bible have anything at all to do with quantum mechanics? The Bible is a religious book; not a science textbook. As Saint Augustine put it, "The purpose of the Bible is to show us how to go to heaven; not how the heavens go". Only Biblical fundamentalists think of the Bible as a science textbook, and they are a minority of all Christians. By the way, speaking of science, what do you think of the recent discovery by some physicists of subatomic particles that have been clocked as traveling faster than the speed of light? Old Einstein must be rolling over in his grave now, since according to his Special Theory of Relativity, nothing can travel faster than light.

K-man,

No, I am sincere with my inquiry. I was raised in a very religious and close family and was well indoctrinated in the faith before heading off to university. My faith is still strong enough to seek answers or at least clues in the scriptures to which direction we should take. Even the great master Dr Einstein could not really explain how he conceived some of his breakthrough thoughts.

Unlike Dr Hawking who has given up on God, I believe ( or want to believe) that one day we will find Him in the conjectures, not necessarily in mathematical equations and experiments, but in logical thought driven by the equations and experiments.

If there is a God, then there must be a physical path to Him or else we do not exist and Mr Hawking will be correct that the Theory of Nothingness is indeed the path to the Theory of Everything.

Ad'm, you may be interested in The Urantia Book.

fgh,

Having read a brief book review it definitively sounds like another "cult" doctrine. The authorship seem to have taken the most popular concepts of various disciplines and oversimplified them with their spin to get attention and control of the readers. A methodology used by the Nazis in the 1930s. The book has been dated between 1924 and 1955. I am not accusing the authorship of being Nazis but it was a popular methodology at that period.

Just another cult I would say.

There are 2.1 billion Judeo-Christians and 14 million Judaists who authenticate the dead sea scrolls. That alone should qualify this as newsworthy. Shalom.

Don't forget the Muslims who also see the Torah as God's word...

Nope Denton, Muslim do not consider the torah as the word of God because they consider all current gospels and torah to be corrupt. If the torah and gospels are the word of God and God is all powerful, not sure how he would allow them to get corrupted. So their basic thinking is flawed.

Bj-541334

Nope Denton, Muslim do not consider the torah as the word of God because they consider all current gospels and torah to be corrupt. If the torah and gospels are the word of God and God is all powerful, not sure how he would allow them to get corrupted. So their basic thinking is flawed.

Muslim thinking is not flawed. Yours is a circuitous argument. Man has, and does corrupt God's work.

You perhaps have not noticed, but this would be obvious to you if you just look around. Actually you don't even have to do that...just open up the said book and read - The Torah [The Law] itself tells you that it is not God's original unedited Work, and is not God's Word! [ And not of Moses either!]

The Gospels do not make the grade, even qualify to be commented on, in this regard.

Muslim thinking is very much flawed. I ask you is your allah all powerful? Why is it that it took him 3 tries to keep his word safe from being corrupted? Quran says believe in the Torah, Injel (gospels) and all the scriptures given to the prophet. In order to believe in a book, you have to read it. Muslims believe that Torah and the injel are corrupt so I want you to show me where the uncorrupted Torah and Injel are because the command in the quran is to believe in them. If you can't show them then your quran is corrupt and flawed because its ordering its followers to believe in it.

hmm yes B.J. (its me my FRIEND, i was not gonna say another word TO YOU BUT! your "stalking comment" was WAY too irresistible. well that, and your still wanting to aggravate me, soooo,) i promise i will "leave you be" if thats what you wish, if not, i can do this for THE REMAINDER of my rather (constant surgeries, to "rebuild" me, leave me sore and sleepless) limited existance... i need a compadre, and as it turns out you "get my irish up" and i need some passion to ignite my writing... i have been to long without passion..., i was (again) all riled up by your coldness, but in reality... it has given me a spark, to speak up. (i must, very honestly thank you for that) so, all "stalking" aside (lol .... really ? stalking.... oh BROTHER !, here, i thought i was Communicating ? you do like to EMBELLISH .... oi ! thats a Gaelic exclamation) so if you would like another piece of my story (tedious... its true) go have a look see, but if a lack of understanding prevails (meaning cruelty or sarcasm) we, (that's you and me, Bro..) are gonna be like "PEAS and CARROTS".... I actually don't like peas, unless their fresh.... but i Digress... i becoming more fond of you by the minute.... (yes, i know that sounds strange but its all strange since coming home.....lol) have a better day...COMPADRE..

I guess if I give you the spark to be passionate about something then feel free to do whatever you want. You do have a crazy way of writing, like 2 people fighting to write at the same time.

VERY PERCEPTIVE.... well done, 2 sides is right ...lol, there is my playful Real Nature, god gave me that... :).... and then, (drum roll please !)there is the part that wants to shout it from the Rooftops, what is really going on in the world outside (depending on your Geographic)... that, life in much of the world, is getting cheaper by the day. and i have seen some things first hand, that no doubt, would make you sad. That's part of me Too Buddy.. but i have not lost my gratitude for being alive, thanks to a few people, maybe you, in a backwards sorta way. and saying thanks cost me nothin' lol.... so,.. thanks.. (well sh_t i feel better...lol Ain't life Grand?...seriously!)

Just about any mention of the previous Goddess religion was censored by the church fathers. However the worship and adoration of the "Virgin Mary" remains.

MSpielman,

"I find the development of early Christian texts fascinating."

I agree with you. I find the development of early Christianity fascinating, too. But the Dead Sea scrolls actually have little direct bearing on Christianity. They are not Christian writings. Most of them are ancient versions of Old Testament books of the Bible or fragments of those books written in Hebrew and Aramaic as well as the writings of an ancient Jewish sect that some scholars have identified as being the Essenes, although that identification is not certain. What makes the Dead Sea scrolls fascinating to most Biblical scholars is that they are far older than any of the Biblical manuscripts we had prior to their discovery. Most of the manuscripts we had of the Old Testament were written in the 10th. century A.D., whereas the Dead Sea scrolls are dated from around 200 B.C. to the first century A.D. This allows Biblical scholars to compare these ancient versions with the more modern manuscripts from which our Bibles were translated to determine whether or not the later manuscripts represent an accurate version. The writings of the ancient Jewish sectarians also give a good insight into Palestinian Jewish life and ideology at a very crucial period during the development of Jewish and Christian religious thought.

Many of you should read Greg Braden's "Isaih Effect." The early founders of Christianity, 300 hundred years after Jesus died, really raped the true teachings of Jesus and therefore many people of different faiths have scorned Christianity on a whole. To me there are many ancient scritpures written that tell us how to live, and that is with a loving heart. Love is the key. Even the Quran speaks of love. Man has given his power away for too many centuries when all he has to do is look within.....within lives LOVE.

Fascinating !

Christine, never heard of that book 'Isaiah Effect', but looked it up. The following is from the synopsis and publisher's descriptions off of Amazon:

"Seventeen hundred years ago, key elements of our ancient heritage were lost, relegated to the esoteric traditions of mystery schools and sacred orders. Among the most empowering of the forgotten elements are references to a science with the power to bring everlasting healing to our bodies and initiate an unprecedented era of peace and cooperation between governments and nations...

"...completeness of the Isaiah Scroll offers unprecedented insight into the power of an ancient mystery -- a lost mode of prayer -- that modern science is just beginning to understand. ... Braden invites us on a journey where science and miracles are merged into a new wisdom -- and lead to a startling conclusion. He suggests that Isaiah, the first Old Testament prophet, left precise instructions to the people of the future describing an unconventional mode of prayer. ...

"Using principles recognized only recently in quantum physics, Braden demonstrates how Isaiah's nonreligious, nondenominational form of prayer transcends time and distance to bring healing to our bodies and peace to the nations of our modern world."

You have got to be kidding me right? That is the source for your opinion that the teachings of Jesus have been "raped?" What are you using for supporting evidence, The "Da Vinci Code?" Maybe the movie "2012?"

I cannot wait to read a translation from these early scripts. They are fascinating and will give us a clearer view of the times as they were then. Todays bibles have been translated from Aramaic or Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English with each culture putting their own slants on different phrases or expressions. This is like looking at a CLEAN image. While I am a believer, I am also interested in the history behind my religion. That they will finally be presented to the public is wonderful.

For those of you who ridicule others of their beliefs, WHY do you even bother reading things like this? I just don't get it.

Christine,

Ohh it just gets better and better, I just read that the same author, Braden, also wrote in another book that he believes the world should have by now stopped spinning and then proceeded to start spinning in the opposite direction, causing global calamity. Geez, sounds like a real reliable source.

Janine,

"I cannot wait to read a translation from these early scripts."

You don't have to wait. Excellent translations of many of the Dead Sea scrolls, particularly the ones that were written by the Jewish sectarians of Qumran, where the scrolls were discovered, have already been made by Dr. Geza Vermes, who was one of the early pioneers in the investigation of the scrolls. His book is entitled "The Dead Sea Scrolls in English" and was originally published in 1962 and updated in later versions. The version I have was published in 1987 by Penguin Books. It does not contain translations of every one of the scrolls, however. It contains primarily translations of those that pertain to the Qumran sect of Judaism, but it is fascinating reading. The book also has an extensive introduction giving the historical background of the scrolls and the beliefs of the Qumran community that produced them. There is also another translation entitled "The Dead Sea Scriptures" with an introduction by Theodor H. Gaster, and published by Anchor Books, a division of Doubleday in 1956, but I think the version by Dr. Vermes is better. Numerous books have been published about the Dead Sea scrolls, but most of them do not contain translations of the texts themselves, just historical background.

Really, it seems to be that it is you athiests who choose to interpret things only in a way that fits your own views.

It is well established that the Torah (the first five books of what is now called the "Old Testament") was memorized by each and every Hebrew child. By memorized I don’t mean going to sunday school and knowing the verse of the week, and I don't mean campfire tales. I mean word for word memorization including tone and inflection. Most of the children were then allowed to back to their families to continue in the family trade, and a very few were dedicated to the temple for even more intense study and to eventually become rabbi. That kind of dedication doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for "change and interpretation."

And in case you missed it, the whole point of the dead sea scrolls was that they were lost for millenia, written before Christ (the book of Isaiah recovered was written in 125 B.C. and found in 1947), and yet match up with much more recent manuscripts that were originally considered the most ancient (I am talking gaps of thousands of years, plenty of times for these supposed translation errors and "edits" you seem to convinced of). And your response is that everyone will be able to break out photoshop and modify them further?

Lunatic,

I do not believe in the actual words but what is fascinating is the oldest written copy of the "Old Testiment" before they found these was the Allepo Codice which was written 1000 years later. When they compared the texts they matched word for word so your premise is wrong.

jerry l,

"I do not believe in the actual words but what is fascinating is the oldest written copy of the "Old Testiment" before they found these was the Allepo Codice which was written 1000 years later. When they compared the texts they matched word for word so your premise is wrong."

That's right, and the reason is because the Masoretes, who were the Jewish copyists of the manuscripts of the Old Testament, did believe that what they were copying was in fact the literal word of God, whatever we may or may not believe today. They were meticulously careful in copying the manuscripts, counting every letter in a word before copying it to make sure they were copying it correctly. They were scrupulous in not changing a single letter. Hebrew was originally written only with the consonants. They had no way of representing the vowels. It was the Masoretes who developed a system for writing the vowels, but they developed it as a system of dots and dashes that were written under and above the consonants because they considered the consonants of the text too sacred to be tampered with. Whenever they came across a word they thought was misspelled, they wrote what they believed was the correct form in the margin so that they would not have to change the word in the original text. Such scrupulosity ensured a very accurate copying of the text from generation to generation, as the Dead Sea scrolls have shown. So "The Lunatic's" idea of how the text was transmitted is very naive to say the least.

On the contrary, there have been MANY instances of translational errors, copy errors, edits - so many that it's laughable. One of the most recent was a fragment of Revelation 13:17–18 that was found (a paper which pre-dates all other known copies of this passage) that purports the "Number of the beast" to be 616, not 666. For two thousand years, superstitious people have been afraid every time they see the number 666 ... and now it appears they are REALLY supposed to fear 616.

So the phone company has never used area code 666, but it turns out the people of Grand Rapids MI are all living in hell!

The Lunatic,

"On the contrary, there have been MANY instances of translational errors, copy errors, edits - so many that it's laughable."

That's true, there have been many errors in translating from the original manuscripts into English and other languages, but not so many in the transmission of the manucripts themselves. I believe the King James version of the Bible contains somewhere around 5,000 errors in translation. That's why new translations keep coming out. That's exactly why the Dead Sea scrolls are of so much importance to begin with. Studying them helps us determine where errors in translation may have occurred. As for Revelation 13:17-18 and the number of the beast, I had not heard anything about discovery that the number was really 616, but I don't see how an error could have occurred there since the number in the original Greek version of that text is not written as a number but is spelled out as "hexakosioi heksekonta hex", which, if you can read Greek, means "six hundred sixty six". At any rate, that has nothing to do with the Dead Sea scrolls which do not include the book of Revelation.

Agree that this has nothing to do with the dead sea scrolls, but it's very interesting anyway. The fragment - which has been sitting in storage in Oxford for almost a hundred years and was just re-discovered in 2005 is in Greek and is written as ἑξακόσιοι δέκα ἕξ, (hexakosioi deka hex - or six hundred ten six).

The Lunatic,

That could have been an error on the part of whoever wrote that particular manuscript, since the majority of Greek manuscripts indicate 666 as the number of the beast. But did you know that we have more manuscripts of the books of the Bible than of any of the Greek or Roman classics? There are 5,366 manuscripts of the New Testament in the original Greek, and another 24,790 plus manuscripts of translations into other ancient languages such as Coptic, Syriac, Latin, etc. whereas for the Iliad we have only 643 manuscripts, for the histories of Herodotus we have only 8 manuscripts, of Thucydides and Plato only 7 manuscripts, of the "Gallic Wars" of Julius Caesar only 10 manuscripts, and so forth. The manuscripts of the New Testament are also much closer in date to the time of the original composition than are any of the manuscripts of the classics. Although the manuscripts of the New Testament differ from one another in some relatively minor respects, we have much better sources for authenticating them than we do for most of the Greek and Roman classics, and yet the authenticity of the Greek and Roman classics is doubted by very few.

I first heard about this in a "RadioLab" podcast - and they definitely said that the Oxford fragment was carbon dated and found to be earlier than any other known copy of the passage, and most scientists think it is the original. As usual, I agree with The Lunatic (I'm a big fan of his blog) - it's ridiculous to put any kind of credence on any biblical passage, except for the historical significance of what was going on societally at the time.

HomyDontPlayThatGame,

"it's ridiculous to put any kind of credence on any biblical passage, except for the historical significance of what was going on societally at the time."

It may very well be ridiculous, but then the majority of the human race is ridiculous, because it is just the nature of the religious mind to try to find meaning in "sacred" scripture, whatever religion you may be talking about. And if the meaning is not inherent in the text, they will put it there to satisfy their need for meaning. At any rate, I makes no difference to me whether the number of the beast is really 666 or 616 or 3.89427 because I am not a Biblical fundamentalist. As far as I am concerned, the only significance that number has is the significance it had to the author of the book of Revelation and his audience, and just what that significance was we will probably never really know for sure. But religious people have had a great deal of fun over the centuries trying to figure it out. Even the great Sir Isaac Newton tried his hand at it. He was very fond of trying to figure of the meaning of Bible "prophecies". I guess it's just the mind of a great mathematician exercising itself. If people have fun with it and think they find some kind of meaning in it, what harm can there be in it? It's better than walking into a school classroom with a loaded rifle and blowing the brains out of 20 people, and God knows we have enough of that sort of thing going on these days.

I don't think "offended" is the right word. Maybe "baffled" would be closer, baffled that any thinking human beings could actually believe such unsubstantiated, nonsensical things, and are incapable of recognizing blatant wishful thinking and social indoctrination.

Then there are the bullies who enjoy denigrating people for any reason.

Ed...they are written in ancient Hebrew...which was the language of the Hebrews of the time.

Rich,

You're right, and the Israelis speak Hebrew now as well, although in a form with many words added to express modern concepts and technological terms. But it is still basically the same as ancient Hebrew. Hebrew has always been the language of the Jews in their synagogue service. What does Ed Becker think they speak, Arabic or English?

I'll bet $20 Ed Becker thinks Jesus was a white guy.

gordona,

"I'll bet $20 Ed Becker thinks Jesus was a white guy."

Right, and probably a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant at that!

There are many linguists who can translate it....

DMac,

"Of course, this means nothing to the 6,532,798,423 people who can not read ancient Hebrew. Any translation will be merely speculation."

Of course translations from ancient Hebrew are subject to the views of the translator as are translations from any language into another language. If you don't trust the translations, get yourself a good book on ancient Hebrew and learn it. There are many good books available as well as books containing the original Hebrew text, such as the "Biblia Hebraica". There is no need to rely on translators if you're really serious about the subject.

'god' is an idiotic idea promoted by immoral people to control and pacify the weak minded people. The words in question aren't god's words, just the words of some men who realized they could created a religion by saying the words were from god.

Lunatic,

Can you please quote your source or is that your opinion

jerry l,

"The Lunatic" has at least chosen an appropriate screen name if nothing else!

You do know that Hebrew is read from right to left

jerry,

"You do know that Hebrew is read from right to left"

That's right, and even each individual word is spelled from right to left. So the word "book" (Hebrew "sefer") would be written in Hebrew as "koob" (as its Hebrew form is written "refes"). You also start reading a book written in Hebrew from what would be the back cover in an American book and progress as you read to what would be the front cover in an American book. The individual pages are also numbered from right to left. Arabic is written the same way, only with a different alphabet from Hebrew.

Rich,

"It is history. Real history...not made up history we are used to reading in arab texts."

I agree 100%, and therein lies the real value of the Dead Sea scrolls. People just need to put politics and religious belief or lack thereof aside in order to be able to discover the real value of what is an important part of our human heritage. Some things are timeless.

well said ! and how true !