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Subscribe to RSSAmid rising anger, Pakistan's military has released a set of images which it says show the remote border posts attacked by NATO helicopters and fighter jets on Saturday in an incident that has soured relations between Pakistan and the United States.
Inter Services Public Relations - Pakistan Defence Forces via AFP - Getty Images
An image released by Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) on Nov. 30 shows smoke rising apparently after a cross-border NATO air strike on Pakistani border posts on a mountain in the Mohmand tribal district on Nov. 26, 2011.
Inter Services Public Relations - Pakistan Defence Forces via AP
An image released by Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) on Nov. 30, 2011 shows a Pakistani army post reportedly targeted by NATO helicopters resulting in the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers.
Inter Services Public Relations - Pakistan Defence Forces via Reuters
A still image taken from an ISPR (Inter Services Public Relations) video released on Nov. 30, 2011 shows a white flag in a Pakistani army post after a NATO attack in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border area on Nov. 26.
Inter Services Public Relations - Pakistan Defence Forces via Reuters
A still image taken from an ISPR (Inter Services Public Relations) video released on Nov. 30, 2011 shows a destroyed Pakistani army post after a NATO attack.
Reuters reports:
A senior Pakistani army official has said a NATO cross-border air attack that killed 24 soldiers was a deliberate, blatant act of aggression, hardening Pakistan's stance on an incident that could hurt efforts to stabilize Afghanistan.
Major General Ishfaq Nadeem, director general of military operations, said NATO forces were alerted they were attacking Pakistani posts but helicopters kept firing.
"Detailed information of the posts was already with ISAF (International Security Assistance Force), including map references, and it was impossible that they did not know these to be our posts," Pakistani newspaper The News quoted Nadeem as saying at a briefing held at army headquarters on Tuesday.
The army released a video to the media showing what it said were the Pakistani border posts -- rough constructions of large stones, corrugated metal and canvas in isolated positions.
Filmed from a helicopter, it also showed foxholes and what appeared to be a mortar emplacement surrounded by rocks.
Nadeem was adamant NATO had been told it was attacking Pakistani positions. "They continued regardless, with impunity," The News quoted him as saying. Read the full story.
Related content:
- Outraged Pakistanis protest deadly NATO airstrike
- Pakistan: No more 'business as usual' with US
- Pakistan buries troops killed in NATO attack
- Slideshow: Pakistan: A nation in turmoil
Saturday's incident on Pakistan's border with Afghanistan has complicated U.S. attempts to ease a crisis in relations with Islamabad. Senior U.S. officials tell NBC News they have no additional details regarding the US/NATO airstrikes. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
Leave a Comment:
What a mess! We should pull out of that region ASAP. There is no military solution to the problems facing us there.
The Mega-Wealthy are making a lot more money dealing in death.
funny, In all the pics except the first one...I see standing structures and tents....what the hell was the Paki Military taking pictures of? The outpost thier showing looks fine. If the first pic is a base that was hit...well, looks like they got burnt up good.
Hmmm, how could they have mistaken this for Islamabad?
The Pakistanis from this position fired on US forces in Afghanistan FIRST.
If you start firing across the boarder at US forces you get return fire, it doesn’t matter what flag you fly, enemy terrorist have many times dressed as what ever is convenient for them at the time. Pakistan’s “army” is riddled with terrorist and terrorist sympathizers who in this case mistakenly thought they could kill US service men with impunity.
This is the same crap the Pakistanis have been doing to the Hindus in India for decades.
Get our service members out.
WTF is wrong with you people? 24 men got killed by mistake by US soldiers and all you can do is pound your chest and promise more mayhem? And then you wonder why people over there hate your country? What a clueless bunch...
We record EVERYTHING. Put the recording out for everyone to see. Were the Paks shooting at our troops? Were they warned to stop shooting? Bet your ass that before we were allowed to engage, 5 levels of lawyers and Commanders checked all the blocks and had permission from God to return fire. Put the TRUTH out there. If permission was give to fire by the Paks, then put that info out there.
The problem with the Paks is that the say one thing and do another. The kiss ass to the religious nuts because they are "True Believers" and truely respect them, yet they do not want to lose the benefits of Western money and culture.
As for me, I think that we need to tell the Pak Government to tell their people the truth and deal with it or we cut off relations. No more money and no more aid when the get flooded out and no more bribes to keep India from attacking.
I am so tired of supporting people that hate us. Give them the same love we give them.
I find it funny that when they reference the "UN" people automatically assume it's the US that did it. All I've read about this is the Paki's are blaming the US and I haven't seen anything saying the US attacked their outpost. All I've read is that it was the UN.
@Max^108 -
The way I see it Max, is if the terrorists want to take pot shots close by these paki outposts and the Paki's allow it then we should treat them the same as terrorists. I mean, come on, we are sending them billions of dollars to fight terrorism and what are we getting for it? Not a damn thing. If anything, they are promoting it. And if it's true about these extremists being allowed to fire at NATO forces under the protection of these outposts then they got what they deserved. And before you start calling people clueless I suggest you read up on what's been happening at these outposts before you open your pie hole.
Wars are not exactly formal little ceremonies. #$%@ happens in a war. Do your part to end the conflict and in the meantime - deal with it.
Good riddens dune coones
Mosi
It was reported that we (the U.S.) actually got permission from the Paki government to light these guys up. As far as I can tell, we did nothing wrong. We thought we saw terrorists, we blew them up.
And Max, Don't act like the Pakis are completely innocent in all of this. Like I stated above, it was reported that we got PERMISSION to fire on these guys. It was also reported that U.S. and Afghan security forces in Afghanistan were taking small arms and mortar fire from the bases. If I were one of those soldiers in Afghanistan taking fire, my first thought would have been "him or me..? hm..Him."
And before you start the "don't believe every thing the media here tells you" crap, I'd take the word of western media over Pakistan government run media any day.
No amount of US aid will change the Pakistan army's covert support for four major terrorist formations, the Afghan Taliban the Haqqani group, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s fighters, and the Lashkar-e-Toiba ...There is no chance that Pakistan will view enhanced assistance... as sufficient compensation for abandoning support to these groups.
I have a hard time believing that UN forces acidentally attacked these outposts. Why is no one from the UN forces quoted at all in this article? Any good journalistic report shares the view from both sides as best they can and if they can't at least say you tried and why there isn't more information. We can continue to speculate that our forces were fired upon first or that the pakis were harboring (more) terrorists, but we need mroe information.
If any of our specualtion is true I cannot understand why we would continue to work with them. We need to drop pakistan as our fake ally and put more effort into our relationship with india.
The Pakistani Army in the region is riddled with Taliban sympathizers and border posts often fire on NATO and Afghan troops. The Taliban, by agreement and with permission, often station themselves near such outposts as a sort of human shield. They fire indirect fire and then while the situation is being sorted out leave the area, often to shell those who respond. This is neither new nor unique. You can google literally scores of such incidents.
But what seems to be going on here is very different and very complicated. As best as I can sort it out:
1) The current civilian government is very, very weak and lacking broad support by the people. As always since the British left, it is very, very corrupt and has only gotten worse as government and military officials jockey to rake off millions from European and American foreign and military aid.
2) The military itself currently lacks a strong man and is governed by consensus at meetings of the Army General Staff. This reduces their power greatly because consensus means that they usually do nothing because one or more of the generals disagrees. And they are corrupt as well, raking in millions in baksheesh from not only military aid but in contructs, such as trucking, with NATO.
3) The Army secret service (ISI) is a completely separate power only loosely connected to the Army itself and with extrodinary powers to arrent, interrigate, investigate, confiscate, etc. The ISI is not only well-connected to the wealthy elite who run the government, but to the professional class (lawyers, physicians, educators, engineers, etc) and the military's field-grade officers. But they also have very close ties to the tribal leaders in the autonomous region and to the Taliban and other radical Muslim groups. They have, for decades, used the mafia-like al Haqquani Network as a sort of private army that operated in both Pakistan and Afghanistan and takes in huge amounts of money from the drug trade.
4) Right now the ISI has taken a double whammy from NATO and especially from Americans. First was the death of Bin Laden. The ISI had absolute knowledge of where bin Laden was hiding for years, probably setting up the hideout themselves. For Americans to find him and zip into his safehouse and kill him in the middle of a major Pakistani Army garrison town was a major black eye. The Pakistani's blamed the military and the military blamed the ISI. But there has also been a NATO offensive against the previously off-limits Haqquani Network, killing several of its leaders and collaterally killing a numnber of important tribal elders. This has robbed the ISI of huge amounts of drug money and diminished them greatly in the eyes of the tribal chiefs who rule the region. People like the ISI do not let go of power easily.
5) One real point of current ISI paranoia are the Pakistani nuclear warheads (estimated at 70-90) and their ICBMs down to tactical nuclear-capable missiles to deliver them. The ISI is tasked with the security of the warheads and missiles and have become intensely afraid that NATO is going to swoop down and seize the warheads and destroy the missiles. Because of this, there have been numerous reports of missiles and warheads being moved around the country, very lightly protected, by rail car and truck in an insane version of the old shell game that leaves warheads very open to being taken by Muslim terrorists.
6) You have to remember that the ISI is not particularly anti-American so much as anti-Indian. They set up, recruited for, trained, financed, and controlled the Muslim terrorists who wrecked so much havoc in Mumbai recently. Only the influence of the US restrained India from reprisals. The ISI was even stung by the CIA/NSA while the raid was going on. NSA gave the Indian police and Army the cell phone data necessary for the Indians to monitor, in real time, the activities of the terrorists and listen in on their ISI handlers. The ISI has long considered the Kashmir dispute as its private kettle of fish and use it to create a straw dog enemy around which to unite disparate elements of Pakistani society. The Muslim people hate them because they are Hindus, the government hates India because it is more competitive and has a rising standard of living, and the military hates the Indians because they are about 4 times as large, are also nuclkear-armed, and have beaten them in wars in the past.
7) It is the general consideration that in the future that NATO will reduce foreign and military aid to Pakistan because of budgetary considerations, the winding down of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the general tiredness of Europeans and Americans with war in that particular area. This would create a situation where the ISI not only lost its share of foreign and military aid, but would also see both the military and civilian government trying to encroach on the drug trade to make up for lost baksheesh.
My guess is that the ISI is perceiving that now is the time to push to break relations with the U.S. and basically take over both the government and the military as "the man behind the green curtain." By doing so, they would achieve a number of aims: a) This is a weak and unpopular civilian Pakistani government --- just ripe for becoming an ISI puppet. b) The Paki military is essentially leaderless and thoroughly infiltrated by the ISI --- and who knows what future strongman might arise in the military. c) This would protect the Haqquani Network and the billions of dollars in drug trade. d) It would solidify the ISI's relationship with the tribal chiefs, the Taliban, and with mUslim radical groups --- almost 1/3 of the country.
If there is a serious break in relations with the NATO countries, and especially, the ISI would refocus attention on Kashmir and its traditional enemy India. One would expect to see Muslim terrorism against India stepped up greatly and a number of border incidents.
If the ISI gets hard up for money --- it is expensive to maitain a loyal system of spies, informants, and toadies --- it could always sell fissionable material, plans for missiles, key missile and warhead parts, and even whole missiles and warheads to the highest bidder. North Korea would certainly be interested. And countries like Egypt that are swinging toward radical Islam are perceiving that they now "need" missiles and nuclear weapons to offset Israel.
This is a dangerous situation that is very poorly understood but which will likely have serious reprecussions in the near and mid-term future.
Wasn't it NATO...not the UN who pulled the trigger? I don't believe the UN even has arm's.
They do have some "spiffy" baby blue fedora's though
MOSinEUR---Give them the same love we give them. Say what? WTH does this mean it makes no sense??????
Brian790---The outpost thier showing looks fine... Thier???? Is spell check not working??
Mike S---I'd take the word of western media over Pakistan government run media any day... What diff does the propaganda make as to which side it comes from? They all lie and twist stories to their advantage.
I'm not defending Pakistan. To hell with them. The point is: we just should not be there. This perpetual war BS is totally insane, especially considering that US treasury is broke. The war spending is totally on credit. The size of our deficit is so large that every US taxpayer's share of it is something like half a million dollars. WTF are you - supporters of this war - thinking? The US wars continue only because of YOU! Just because these wars are fought with volunteers and mercenaries does not make YOU - yes, YOU - excluded from bearing the COST of these stupid wars!
David - The day after the attack, I heard a news report that said the NATO forces received permission to hit the area due to receiving direct fire from that specific point. This wasn't an accidental attack.
Can we all see what happened? The post, or enemies in direct proximity to the outpost, fired on US forces. That is what happened. We received permission to attack the source of the fire & did so. All was well and a typical military operation - right up until the point of our killing Paki's...
How could enemy fire be coming down on Americans from the post or immediately next to the post? How could good, trained, Paki forces allow the fire to come from within or immediately next to their post? Why weren't these good soldiers shooting the enemy themselves? Did the Paki soldiers cooperate with the enemy to engage the NATO forces? Did the enemy forces think the Allied bombs would not target the outpost, using the post as a shield? Again, where was the Pakistani Army while this was going on?
@MAx^108
Really? Are you that blind? Our forces were fired upon, they call in for Air Support. Why? Because they were on a mission and the Paki goons fired on our soldiers WHILE they were on a mission. That makes them the enemy. Go hug a tree for goodness sakes.
Do your research and follow Pakistans track record and such. If at that point you dont see or understand why it happened, then you should probably step away from the computer, climb up the stairs from your Mom's basement and step out into the sunlight because you need something to wake you up!
Onesoul - US military will lie to cover up the mess they have made. They do it all the time. Remember Pat Tillman story? Lots of good guys died absolutely for nothing in Butfhukistan. And will continue to die for nothing because far too many people like you support these wars.
Chris...it's good to see a post from someone who obviously has some knowledge of the issues. I agree with pretty much your entire assessment. I believe the ISI is actually the greatest danger to stability in the region (a relative statement in that the region has never been stable). I believe we have precious little to gain by continuing to prop up the current government (I was going to use the term civilian government but we really know better don't we). I also believe that our withdrawal from Afghanistan and Pakistan will push the ISI efforts in the direction of Kashmir. Without an external enemy there is little possibility of ISI (or any single factor) consolidating power in Pakistan. We should simply leave now. India will be much less patient with Pakistan.
disable vet 2153438..........i agree with you 100%. just as i was taught when i was in the MARINE CORPS shoot first then ask questions later! damn straight,being shot at gets a lots of rounds from me.
its a done deal! turn the hilltop into golf course!
SEMPER FI
RETIRED IN VEGAS
LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING! WHOOOOOOOOOORAAAA!
Disabled - produce the proof that US forces were fired upon exactly from that area. The Paki border post coordinates were well known, they knew they were attacking a target inside Pakistan. You really think that these 24 soldiers were on a suicide mission or had a death wish? You really think they were attacking US forces on purpose? Dude... get a grip on reality, they are smarter than you think. And if they did fire, they likely mistook the NATO/US soldiers for Taliban. Given the technology THEY have, that can be an honest mistake. Given the technology WE have, it is an unacceptable collateral damage at best.
if you love it why retire?
RNELSON302..... first every american military wear an american flag on there unniform,its not in the red and white colors. i carried mine in my field jacket.
Nice pix-
I can get you Taliban sympathizers a LOT of pictures from WWII showing destruction of Japanese cities.
Guess who started THAT war? It wasn't us.
If some Pak is stupid enough to start shooting at coalition troops, then they deserve what they get.
Those of you who don't believe in returning fire when fired upon should try going over there to try to settle the matter. Just make sure you have your will in order first.
due to time in grade one has to put in for retirement;that is military good way of saying you have reached your final goal in the service you joined. now,you only retire but you are still a MARINE,ARMY,AIR FORCE,COAST GUARD...YOU NEVER LOSE THAT! now, these folks were shooting at the helicopter, so i would have leveled it too. i would have called in support too make this hill top a parking lot. but it has come time too get out of there.
SEMPER FI
DANNY P
Move along, nothing to see here, move along readers.
Max^108
Where did you see that it was the US that made the air attack?? I did not see that anywhere. It said NATO not the US.
Now, It looks just a little out of place to me. Photo one looks just like a fire not an air strike, the second photo looks just like a camp with no destruction what so ever. Photo three, is just a white flag not a Pakistani flag ,showing that it is Pakistan's outpost. (and that could have been placed well after the fact of the attack)and they're released from the pakies. believe what you like of these photos I am sorry that these Pakistani solders were killed, but you have to wonder why ,...If the Taliban attackers were close to their outpost, Why were the Pakistanis not placing their fire upon the Taliban attackers, and not on the striking planes?? I am sure that the pilots would have seen that.
Sorry I ment helicopter/s
Lock131 learn to spell! It's riddance not riddens. Won't bother to correct the other obvious misspelling. And the spell check button is right above the comment box.... Can't teach ignorance.
killroy -
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
if there is any conversation between the pilots and command, then put the info out, so everyone will know what happened; all this hogwash about getting permission from the pakis, are getting permission from command is hogwash , until it is made public; if it is not made public, then it does not exist. get our troops out now .
Some mothers and fathers raised war mongers and most claim to be religious--on both sides. I know why they hate us. You have all these dips up the line explaining what happened based on our government spins it to be.
Would Jesus Nuke em?
The Pakistani's who claim this was NATO'S fault are LIARS--Iran is behind all the chaos everywhere.
There has been a Military Investigation; they fired upon NATO first. Believe it---they are all devious Taliban members--Tribes who have not been civilized.
Who would trust a Pakistani's word against any in this world, except for Iran?
Bad dudes; US Must recognize Pakistan as an Enemy--they've done the damage; including the Assassination of Bhutto---
Who's next in Pakistan--Musharaf got out before he was Assassinated.
I don't begrudge Max his views, he will see things the way he sees them. No matter what anyone tries to tell him.
When the story originally broke, the report was that the US and Afghani troops were being fired on and called in a NATO air strike. Pakistan came back imediately and insisted NATO attacked them first. Interesting, the inconsistancy of the FACTs that we know at this point, which isn't much, why would the air strike be called in unless someone was firing on the ground operation? If it was the ground operation that fired on the Pakistani outpost, why would they have called in an air strike?
Chris made a very valid point in regard to the ISI. If they want to foment hostilities between the US and Pakistan, this would be the best way to do it. In their minds, the US cannot be allied with BOTH India and Pakistan. "The friend of my enemy is my enemy" No matter what the overall perspective of the rest of the country, the ISI's best course is to alienate the US and NATO.
How many times has the Pakistani intellegence service jumped on issues to spin the story to make the US look guilty since 2001?
Our governement is far from innocent, but having served in Iraq more than once and knowing a number of people who served in Bosnia and Kosovo, I can tell you; There is no way there would have been an "accident" here. As has been stated above, the situation is monitored and verified. I would hazard a guess that NATO is solidifying it's evidence and will release a response very soon, unless it compromises ongoing mission integrity.
@Max^108: For the last 10 years we've been fighting a war in Afghanistan, mainly after Al Qaeda, now mainly in some muddled bit of country engineering intended to stop future Al Qaedas from emerging. Throughout this process, Pakistan has been ragged on, mainly by government and media sources primed by our newfound "best friends", the Indians.
But if you consider the monstrous magnitude of what the Pakis did in hiding Osama bin Ladin, and consider the consequences--the prolonged war, the untold civilian and military casualties, the wasted money. This is the smallest thing they have to worry about right now, and even if it's true, the only reason they're milking it is to divert attention away from the monstrous and duplicitous actions of their intelligence and military services. The politicians should stop their whining and let the normal investigative processes work.
This is not the first nor is it the last friendly-fire accident, if, indeed, that is what happened. Pakistan has a large, well-trained army, and they above all else should realize this and not be participating in the political agitation. To do so is to pour salt on their mortal insult of harboring bin Ladin.
LOCK131, don't make racist remarks please. You are suspended for a day for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
Wow, I was reading , you guys have very good comments. chris-749391 was very good ,all I know, they fight like little kids,shoot at us and run behind mama's dress.Weeell,your mama did'nt help, them this time. he he
@ MAx^108:
unfortunately have not kept up with this thread and hopefully , MAX you will read this:
You bring up Tillman. What do you know about that situation? You see, I do know about that situation quite well. I too was SF when I was in and proud to have the brotherhood that I have/had and continue to have to the last breath. You absolutely have no idea what you are spouting off and have nothing to back up what you are saying. Who bombed the Paki outpost? You say US? Hows about NATO? Does that sound about right? Maybe a little? Somewhat?
Stop blaming the US and military on things that our military does is by orders/on orders to do so. we have carried out orders that we did not understand to allow others to do their part of the big picture. None of the military's jobs/missions are to destroy good people/allies. Ever! There is always a purpose and orders to follow. So before you spout off about something that you do not know, you may want to ask a friend to pop you in the nose every time you start to say something ignorant on one of these threads. You will end up ducking and weaving so much you wont have time to comment on them.
Do some research and stop bashing out military and go out of your way to thank anyone in a uniform. Thank them for allowing you to have the freedoms you have currently because you have not fought to earn them yet you reap the benefits. Sad, so very sad
Tragic, sad, counterproductive, unhelpful.
Rest in peace.
Let's improve the communication, improve the map-reading skills, and make sure this doesn't happen again.
Please keep in mind that the soldiers manning the outpost are on our side, against those who were firing on American and Afghan troops.
Merry Christmas everyone.
LMAO!!! The area looks a little more peaceful with smoke rolling from the hills
genesisforbidden,
"The area looks a little more peaceful with smoke rolling from the hills"
You, too, can work wonders with Adobe Photoshop! Buy it now! Photographic "evidence" means less and less these days with our ability to digitally enhance photographs.
Now they have their very own "Smokey Mountains" State Park. How serene.
Hey: We did good
little napalm would be nice!
SEMPER FI
I LOVE the smell of Napalm in the morning, that smell, that gasoline SMELL.
A VET HERE TO Napalm is made from aviation fuel I like the smell even more so than gas..
I like those "vets" who say they love the smell of napalm in the morning. I'm a vet too and personally I can do without the smell. Makes me wonder what you REMF's really did during the war....
Ian - Just making a funny from the movie Apocalypse Now my friend. Please go to www.riflewarrior.com/vietnam.html . Don't see why a Vet has to personally attack another for no reason, contact me via E-Mail and we can discuss this off vine. Thank You for your Service
@Ian,
Apocalypse Now was a classic movie with a "gung-ho" surfing commander who's line was "Ahhh I love the smell of Napalm in the morning". Ease up and realize it was a funny and I am sure you are smart enough to know that NO VET from Vietnam would EVER seriously say that they love that smell. I could almost guarantee that. Take a breath
I would suspect that the smell of napalm would be dependent on the wind, up wind, down wind? The pleasure derived might be dependent on the where, when, and why the delivery was made. Like so many things, it all about perspective.
Imagine what the US reaction would be if Pakistan had attacked one of our military positions and killed a like number of our soldiers. There is a good deal of political posturing, I'm sure, but there is also a good deal of genuine rage and grief on the part of those who do not make the news, i.e., the families and friends of the dead.
We accomplished the mission. It is time to leave. It is PAST time. Staying longer will serve no purpose, strategic or otherwise.
Pakistan harbored the idiot that sponsored an attack on American soil that killed over 3,000 innocent people. Enough said. Karma's a bi$%^!
Pakastanis lied; Pakastanis died
10 years ago when the Northern Alliance came out of North Afghan kicking butt on the taliban the US allied with them. The US put people and materiel in the game and the Taliban started to get routed. Then the US stopped and told the N Alliance to hold up. The US allowed a bunch of Pakistani Air Force C-130's to come in, and the Paks in the Taliban were allowed to fly back home to safety. The Afghans in their traditional ways, tortured and sometimes killed thier prisoners and some weak people in the US Gubmint were squeemish about that. Once gone, the Northern Alliance was given the green flag and they crushed the Afghan Taliban all the way to the Bora Bora region. The US govt allowed this - trying to show the Paks we're not bad to have as allies. Those Pak Taliban should have been left to their fate in Afghan. Always wondered how many US servicemen were killed or wounded when those Pak Taliban returned to resume their activities. Some politicians and Pentagonistas are responsible for that but by now they are retired to their Florida or Costa Rica beach homes and we'll never find out who authorised it.
Sadly this happens a lot,many times Americans have fired on and killed their own troops,my heart goes out to the families of all those wounded and killed.Its the last thing America wanted,in a war that has gone on way too long,we achieved our goals ,time to go home.
No Pakistani flags in sight.
No permieter barbed wire in sight.
No military equipment in sight.
Doesn't look very much like a "military outpost" to anyone who spent any time in the military.
"No phones, no lights, no motor cars. Not a single luxury. Just a bunch of bombed a**holes, as primitive as can be."
So if there are no military indicators it is OK to bomb? That sure leaves most of our homes at risk.
Good one, lol.
It looks like the "diorama" our kitty makes in her litter box.
I have noticed u.s. soldiers do not carry american flags.
they wear them on their uniforms rnelson, and they are attached to the FOBs also.
Don't they all have them on their sleeves?
Yep, Looks like a Pakistani Border Outpost to me. How could NATO have missed that?
Love the touch of the pristine "White Flag". I'm sure that didn't just fall out of the Photographers pocket and land on the Tree branch (Which BTW, How many Shrubs, Trees do you see in that picture)?
They want an excuse to expand the empire.
I see none at all.
But the average paki already knows that there are no shrubs or trees there. Their hoping that no one else see that.
As a citizen of United States of America, i am appalled by our warmongering !!!! My sincere apologies to Pakistanis and to all the widows of the soldiers who perished in this unwanted attack.
Ron Paul, please run independent so we can bring you in office and end this foolish war we started decade ago.
They day Ron Paul gets elected to US President is the day that I move to a border outpost in Pakistan. Interestingly enough, that will never happen. Jesus told me.
It said NATO...Not USA.
Dan Still doesn't get it...How naive...It's okay, Dan; you can be one of the 1% that we will protect from yourself...TOOL.
Dan- as much as I love Dr. Paul (and AM voting for him) I don't think he would agree with your statement, NATO forces were fired upon they fired back, Dr. Paul would support that. Ron Paul is not anti-war, he's anti going to war without obtaining a Constitutionally-mandated declaration.
Dan,
I am appalled at your ignorance...WE didn't start this war, Osama Bin Laden and Al Qa'ida did, by retreating to Afghanistan and then to Pakistan. By harboring Bin Laden the Taliban made themselves targets for reprisal. In turn the Pakistanis have brought themselves into this by aiding and hiding Bin Laden, and informing his allies when we were getting close to him. There is NO way Bin Laden spent nearly 5 years in Abbotobad without the ISI or the senior military staff in Pakistan knowing about it.
George W Bush started the war in Iraq, so you would have some valid argument there, but NOT in Afghanistan.
Pakistan and Afghanistan deserve each other.
How can you tell it was destroyed? It looks pretty much the same in the before and after pictures. I'm also certain the Pakistanis didn't actually put up that white flag, either. It also appears that only the mortar emplacements were attacked, since the tents are still unharmed, so that indicates the Pakistanis were all working the guns when they were attacked and not sleeping like their government claims.
I agree with "Pat's post"
No Paki flag
No barbed wire
it does not resemble in the slightest a "military post".
Fake Photoshopped photo op.
The white flag is actually the community toilet paper they put out every third day. You don't want to see it midweek! I'm sorry, that was a @!$%#ty thing to say.
@Sirlafalot: Pakis don't use toilet paper; they use their left hand and water...
Eww.
So don't eat soup from a Paki finger bowl I'm thinkin'?
They all eat (by hand) from a main platter and only use their right hand...
That is just disgusting to think about. What if they need to write and they are left handed? Would it be considered a @!$%#ty letter?
LOL- Good one!
But yes; I had to eat with them and that is the tradition/custom in that region...It's a @!$%# sandwhich and we all had to take a bite...
It's also why they don't shake hands sirlafalot (love your handle btw) it's a sign of disrespect.
photos show an encampment of some sort.......but not a military outpost
Do you think it is a hunting lodge?
I see a lot of intact bunkers. Our guys use guided weapons. Obviously, they need more practice. Move down the ridge and try again.
Even with precision/guided weapons we can still miss. Regardless, we would just 'Combat Offset'...LOL!
The accuracy of GPS guided weapons is determined by the accuracy of the address and the data link. I have not read any complaints about the inability of the US Army to put steel on target. Then too, the Taliban are generally not in a position to complain? The Pakistani Army has equipment that is similar to the US, if they don't know, they don't know.
I'd laugh if Pakistan bombed a few 'US' Outpost's on the Afghan border, and turned around and said oopps.. The US is a spoilt brat on the world - On the fact that Osama was in Pakistan means nothing - how many highly wanted people by the FBI and CIA are living in the US and have been for donkeys years ON the most wanted list until they are forgotten about.
I'm pretty sure there aren't any international terrorist leaders living in the US being protected by the government and military. Yet, we keep finding and killing international terrorists in Pakistan.
You claim the US is a "spoilt" brat on the world, yet without the US's financial support, countries like Pakistan wouldn't be around.
Todd-651965,
Care to explain to;
1. To the families of the thousands of innocents killed by the CIA piloted drones...
2. The families of the children killed by the US Military pilots, that were collecting firewood for their families...
3. The families of the children & farmers still being killed by the bomblets dropped in Laos...
Then we can talk about accountability...
Then remember that it was the CIA paying and supplying arms to the ISS to support the Muslim terrorist. For decades...
AC- Get your facts in order.
Thousands of innocents killed by CIA piloted drones? Really, thousands? Innocent? The drones fire hellfire missiles, a highly accurate weapon designed to inflict massive damage to the intended target while minimizing collateral damage. So no, there have not been thousands of innocents killed by CIA drones. Heck, the USAF flies most of the drones anyway.
Collecting firewood or emplacing IEDs, both look the same under thermals while traveling at hundreds of miles an hour thousands of feet in the air. Accidents happen, intent is the key. The Taliban intentionally target innocents in order to instill fear in the population (terrorism).
It's been something like 40 years since we dropped anything into Laos. I'm sure most, if not all the bomblets we dropped have been either blown up or are no long viable.
The CIA provided arms and funds to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. It didn't go on for decades.
Now, we all provide funding to terrorists every time we put fuel in our cars or buy dope from Mexico.
Chew on that Paco!
Pakistan can survive without US money as the arrangement benefits the generals as it did in Egypt. Pakistan knows the US is not going to win this war, and must do what it takes to make peace with those who will inherit political power in Afghanistan. Americans don't get it.
Pakistan can survive without US money as the arrangement benefits the generals as it did in Egypt. Pakistan knows the US is not going to win this war, and must do what it takes to make peace with those who will inherit political power in Afghanistan. Americans don't get it.
Really Todd? You don't have Bush and Cheney living in your country? Aren't they lied to American people on Iraq war and killed more people than in Laden ever did? You F*** yourself. Pak army treated your aholes as friendly army and didn't fire or your arses. Pak army missiles can take on your little 100+k soldiers and attack deep into European and M-east bases with nuke as well as your main land. Get your head out of your rectum.
Also Todd,
1.5 billion in aid does not run the 6th largest nation in the world. The GDP of Pakistan is 178 billion USD (2010) buddy. Now, get out of that trailer home and prepare for your GED exam. en.wikipedia dot org /wiki / Pakistan
1. Conservative estimates from the New America Foundation, a US thinktank, suggest that one third of the deaths from drone attacks in Pakistan are civilian. Daniel Byman from the Brookings Institution suggests that drone strikes may kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed.[12] see http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/13122
2. A AGM-114 (hellfire missile) contains 20+Lbs of high explosive, not much precision here...
3. The CIA estimates that they killed between 1,717 and 2,680 (As of 16 November 2011).[2] This is just in Pakistan and the CIA also states they have killed ZERO innocents...
4. Due to the legality of using these armed drones outside of designated combat areas. The US Military does not pilot them in Pakistan or the almost 40 other countries where the CIA operates them...
5. The USA dropped the equivalent of a fully loaded B-52 every 7 minutes, 24/7, for 9+years on Laos. There are about 1,000 people still being killed and thousands injured every year... BTY - I have traveled there and have seen first hand the damage that is occurring. This is the reason the USA will not sign the International Treaty banning the use of these weapons. Because ALL signatories are required to remove all of these weapons they have deployed...
6. Carter funded the CIA operations in Afghanistan prior to the USSR invasion. Reagan continued it and Clinton also used these terrorist to operate in Bosnia. Ignorance of history is no excuse for stupidity...
The Obama administration has greatly increased the use of armed drones in the
war in Afghanistan. Also increasing are concerns from military analysts and
human rights groups, who say the drones are committing targeted assassinations
and killing innocent civilians; Americans just can't see it. Host Scott Simon
speaks with John Radsan of the William Mitchell College of Law, and Mary Ellen
O'Connell from the University of Notre Dame Law School.
reference http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128584729
During the first year of the Obama administration, there were 51 drone attacks, compared to 45 drone attacks during the full two terms (8 years) of President George W. Bush's presidency, according to "The Year of the Drone," a report by the Washington-based New America Foundation released last month. The report also cites a 32 percent civilian fatality rate in drone attacks since 2004. see http://www.asiantribune.com/news/2010/04/24/killing-civilians-legal
Homeland Security is already flying these on the US borders and into Mexico...
Mexico recently crashed one of theirs in Yuma, AZ...
POLICE departments across the USA are now operating their versions, soon to be armed... Ha! Ha!
We can always go back to carpet bombings; we still are using bombs that were stockpiled from World War II...They were stock piled in Okinawa. All we do is strap a JDAM kit on them and voila! Precision Guided Munition...Dumb iron bombs are REAL cheap; JDAMs are relatively expensive compared to dumb iron bombs... We could ensure that nothing grows naturally in that region for years to come...The more important issue is the fact that if we did, no one would really care either way; this PR campaign Pakistan is riding is strictly to influence their demands from the U.S.
-meaning they want more money...Just watch...You'll see...
AC,
As usual you have warped reality around what you view as the truth.
By aiding and assisting the Taliban and Al Qa'ida, guilt by association, reduces the possibility of "innocent" status. Non-combatant would be a more accurate discription. I would still argue you "thousands" estimation, since the majority of our Drone attacks started AFTER 2006 and weren't activily targetting Taliban or Al Qa'ida in Pakistan until 2008.
You have a point about Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Karl Rove.
AC is back again folks..... hold your nose......
AC- We really have to wonder- you obviously were never in the military, or you wouldn't be drooling the drivel you are.
Considering that you seem to be on the Aq-Queda / taliban side of things, you'd probably be on the Axis side of things in WWII and it looks like the VC side of things in Vietnam.
How does it FEEL to be a supporter of Fascism, mysoginism, and terrorism ? You have a thing for Jews and cattle cars? Something for blowing little kids up like the VC did in Vietnam? Throwing acid in little girls faces on their way to school/
There's meds for that AC.....I gotta feel sorry for you.
Todd,,,, you're right. The Saudi royals and the Bin Ladens flew home on 9-11-2001, remember?
Ooopsie, our bad. (Bwahahahaha)
bettcha those idiots won't fire on the nato airships anymore night or day, they should have had the sense to know that at night the only thing that could be seen was the flashes from the weapons that were firing and that is fair game, up in those mountains you cannot see any thing else in the dark from the air
OOPS.
You all are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You all play both sides of the fence. You all are getting billions of our tax dollars and for what?
When will the USA wake up and realize our money needs to be used HERE at home that we have very few friends and most of those are fair weather.
And unrelated we need to landmine the southern most border after dropping leaflets and posting signs that if you step foot in the zone you will go POW. And we need to back the trucks up and transport all illegals back to their destinations. We can not afford you. I hate no one but our real citizens come first.
4 more years of Obama = 4 more years of failure.
Newt in 2012
Newt in 2-12
Chinook Helicopter with seal team lost, shooter infiltrated from Pakistan. Cross border incursions form Pakistan into Afghanistan mostly unarmed civilians killed. Cross border mortar, artillery and rocket attacks into Afghanistan mostly civilian casualties. Hiding Bin Laden, allowing insurgents to operate with impunity withen Pakistan. A history of shots fired frm Pakistan check points toward NATO Forces.Closing down the border crossings that supply materials to NATO forces. The last time they did this, it was a shooting gallery, with 120 trucks of suppplies destroyed not even counting the number of drivers killed or wounded. So the idea of the Pakistan Army having clean hands or being the innocent victim in all of this is laughable at best.
As a former Platoon Sergeant, I can tell you this, shoot at me or mine and I will do all in my power to make sure your day is terminally short. No exception. This would include artillery support, tactical air support or any other method at my disposal to protect the people I am responsible for. What side of a border you are on willbe the last thing that concerns me.
Newt is a bigger joke the Cain.
And both MUCH better than Obama.
Targeting border posts like this for destruction is a waste of time and the result of losing a long protracted guerilla war ... autrocities like this are not mere chance and not an if, but more a when, they will happen again. This war in Afghanistan could go on for a hundred years and the final result would not change ... we will leave with bands playing and claiming we have achieved a grand victory and the military will write volumns of handbooks on how to win the next conflict. Meanwhile thousands more will die, not the ones who make the policies but the poorboys who are trying to make some money to send back to mama and papa back in the village from where they were likely born and raised.
Retired SFC - Alpha Sierra this is November X-Ray Fire Mission - Over - I'm with you 1,000% - When you get a chance read www.riflewarrior.com/vietnam.html . Retired RMCS
Hi, Y'all. How many of you jaded folks out there have wondered to what extent misinformation from Pakistan's own intelligence people might have played a role in this? They tell our CIA types that the camp merely is disguised as Paki by those wily Taliban infidels (I'm Christian, of sorts). Our agents get the message, and before thinking about how to pass off to NATO, characteristically ponder how any action will impact their pensions/promotions. Word gets sent, action occurs. Same old-same old, on who makes the bucks on the cold steel that kills, and who gets the canon pointed at them. Just sayin'. Aaltarboy.
did anyone think that they were there to be an outpost so there were not suppose to be seen? join the military then add your 1/2 cent please how stupid can you be do you really think that they will have cars,trucks,barbed wire while looking for the ememy? only a few of them they want to not be seen.
I would say then that they need to go back to CCD school...I would say that they stink on ice at concealing their position and if they cannot conceal their position at that location then they need to conceal somewhere else...I would say that the Paki training academy that teaches CCD doctrine needs to be revamped and the instructors that taught them how to conceal should be held accountable for the deaths of the 'innocent' pakis...I would also state that if they approached the NATO/U.S./Afghan outposts and coordinated with them that their outpost was indeed there, this would not have been an issue...I would say that with proper coordination both sides would have had a turkey shoot taking out either the Taliban or Haqannis that might have done the actual firing. I would say that if they were firing from their concealed locations, then they just gave away their position and should have expected returning fire. I would say that if they indeed gave away their position it is no longer concealed and they were stupid to just sit there and take precision fire knowing that being an uncooperating target increases your probability of survival, ergo: SPEED IS LIFE, HESITATION KILLS. Apparently, you failed at CCD training too. Apparently, you might want others to think you joined the military when in reality you might not have- or if you did, you were not deployed in a FOB location or even forward deployed in denied territory conducting reconnaissance and surveillance.
For you non-military types:
CCD: Camouflage, Concealment, and Deception
FOB: Forward Operating Base
As an 'Outpost' and under the Law of Armed Conflict, if you are indeed a military forward operating base, you still need to identify yourself. A simple flag of your nationality will suffice.
The Readers Digest version states:
Lawful Conduct of Belligerent Actors:
Modern laws of regarding conduct during war (jus in bello), such as the 1949 Geneva Conventions, provide that it is unlawful for belligerents to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, and the carrying of weapons openly. Impersonating soldiers of the other side wearing the enemy's uniform is allowed, though fighting in that uniform is unlawful perfidy, as is the taking of hostages.
Take a look at any of our forward operating bases and I am sure you will find an American flag waving in the air in the middle of harm's way. Besides the photo op orchestrated by the Pakis to place a white rag as a symbol that they surrendered AFTER the fact, is a poor attempt to sway public opinion. You will have your lambs out there that will condemn NATO and the U.S. for their actions, but I must ask: If we were taking fire, and we coordinated through multiple levels of chain of command to get permission to fire back; all based on pre-coordinated protocols of response, we did what we did to neutralize a persistent threat: Are there any more rocket/mortar attacks originating from that location? I didn't think so.
By rights, NATO/U.S. and Afghan service members that were in harm's way will go back to their barracks knowing they are still alive and that they followed proper procedure and protocol. The White House will most likely have to do damage control and say we made a mistake and we will adjust our protocols ONCE AGAIN, but by rights, we did the right thing. If the Pakis want to allow Haqanni or the Taliban to fire from their positions or if they are sympathizers to their cause or if they were stupid enough to actually fire on our positions then, then 1) they chose the wrong path in their life, 2)Allah guided them to their destiny after all, and 3) NATO/U.S. and Afghan military just protected the rest of the world from their stupidity and protected the gene pool by erasing 24 x dumb asses from existence.
My heartfelt condolences, thoughts, and prayers go out to the families of ANY innocent Pakistani Army troops...
Operative word is "ANY"
>;-)
@Jaslam...love how you simply gloss over this HUGE point. And in classic anti-American fashion turn the discussion to our FBI's most wanted list. LAME.
You're NOT fooling anyone but YOURSELF.
Pakistan is a double agent. Work for the US and Nato and the Taliban and Al Queda! Eventually, their nukes will fall into the terrorists hands. Let the Arabs deal with them because they will be targeted too.
At first Pakistan claimed that their soldiers returned fire with everything they had. Hmmmm...... I wonder why our helicopters kept firing? The first rule of friendly fire is to NEVER shoot back at friendly's. It is a way to communicate that you are not a threat. If I start shooting at the "enemy" and they don't return fire, I just might stop shooting to figure out why. If the Pakistanis knew the aircraft were from NATO (I'm pretty sure the Taliban don't have Apache's yet) they shouldn't have returned fire. Period.
Todd...do you know anything about the rules of combat? There were forces in the field, small teams receiving fire and in danger. The barrage from the aircraft would continue until all the forces were off the X so to speak. They (friendlies) have to be clear of incoming fire for it to be a successful operation and aircraft reacting to contact know this. It is the rule.
Yeah Riley, I'm in the Army and have deployed to Afghanistan. I've been fired at by US, Romanian, and Afghan troops. Had I returned fire, I would have had to deal with the subsequent indirect barrage and Close Air Support. By not returning fire and using my radio, I was able to positively identify myself each time and avoid some very ugly situations.
If the Pakistani troops started firing at or returned fire on Apache gunships, they got what was coming to them. Especially in that area of the world where many of the insurgents run back across the border and put their Pakistani uniforms back on. It's very frustrating.
They should just make the entire border region a no travel zone and anyone caught crossing into the area gets lit up. But that's just my opinion....
Perhaps you missed the sarcasm in my initial post concerning the helicopters continued fire?
Yes Todd, but, please consider what you are dealing with. Sand diggers are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
If this was indeed a pakistan out post then I feel sorry for the families of the men that died but when they allow insurgents to openly bomb nato bases from their side of the border as well as harbour fugitves like Osama Bin Lada well then its time that thier goverment quit taking money from them and start helping keep the insurgents out of their country then accident like this one won't happen
btfoster, spot-on posting there.
"Those who harbor them will share their fate."
It's this simple: We were paying Pakistan $Billions/yr to "help catch Bin Laden". Problem with that: Pakistanis knew that there's only one Bin Laden, and once you catch him and cough him up to the US, then you are out of the "catching Bin Laden" business. It's about time we quit playing the fool to these pirates. Annihilate Pakistan and be done with it.
and then China and Russia Annihilate us great plan. you should run for president. you got as good a chance as the rest.
rnelson: What reality do you live in? China needs us as much as we need them (Thanks, Bill Clinton)...Russia is a toothless bear and the only reason why they are toothless is because they bit off their claws...All they have left is one or two claws...They know how to growl and people get scared of their growl...That's it.
footnote; of course they could have the outpost lit up but, what idiots would make an easy target on their outpost? in the mountains at night even from the air all you can see is light and shadows thus flashes from weapons firing at you can only mean one thing, enemy fire and thus shoot first and ask questio