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Maffei Glauco / Trentino Italian / EPA
Maffei Glauco / Trentino Italian / EPA
Some of the more than 200 pieces of World War I ammunition which emerged from a melting glacier on a Trentino mountain peak are seen, Aug. 31. Each piece weighs between 7-10 kilos, and the 85-100 mm caliber explosive devices were found at an altitude of 3,200 meters, when a once-perennial glacier on the Ago de Nardis peak partially melted due to a recent heat wave that reached into Italy's highest peaks. The Finance Police Alpine rescue unit, operating in the area between Pinzolo and Madonna di Campiglio, saw brownish metal points emerging from the ice, got a fix on them via GPS, and then extricated the ordnance. The pieces were spread over a 100-square-meter area during series of battles fought between the armies of Austria-Hungary and Italy in northern Italy between 1915 and 1918. Disposal specialists returned to dispose of the munitions.
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Still paying for the idiocy of 100 years ago..
Let's hope we don't have any more casualties from that war - it was bad enough when it was fought.
Another idiotic story by nbcnews. If the ordinance was extricated from the area, why did the bomb disposal units return to the area to dispose of the bombs that were removed?
Second question: If the melting glaciers today revealed the bombs was the temperature there between 1915 and 1918 higher than today's temperature so that the bombs could be stacked there for use? There would be no sense to hide the bombs under the snow and ice. Now as the glaciers move down towards rivers and seas, the bombs were stored further up the mountain where the temperatures supposedly were colder. Therefore when they were stored for future use during 1915 -1918 at a higher elevation, the temperature must have been a lot warmer higher up. Logically the temperature when the bombs were stored must have been a lot HIGHER! As the glacier moved slowly over the last 100 or so years downward and the higher temperatures at the lower elevation melted the snow and ice, the bombs were then revealed.
So it was a lot warmer 100 years ago when the munitions were stored higher up on the glacier. Then does that mean we are in a natural thawing-freezing era? It was warm in 1915 then got colder and snow covered the munitions and now it is warmer and the glacier is carrying the bombs from 100 years ago down into warmer temps? A very interesting thought if you stop to think about it.
@ofcourse1: A glacier is a buildup of years of snowfall. So, 100 years ago the ammunition was on the top of the snow. If the battle is being fought on the glacier, then of course there will be ammunition pilled up there. Over the century the ammunition was covered by the yearly snowfalls, which is what forms a glacier in the first place.
Since melting glaciers is a source of fresh water in many parts of the world, I would think that news of their continued, and accelerating, destruction would cause concern.
Don't worry, I am sure there will be plenty of companies willing to sell fresh water to you for $10 a bottle when all the naturally available water is gone.
I am still amazed at how a vocal minority of "polluter" backed scientists have managed to confuse Americans so well.
That's a lot of assumptions. You don't know the speed the glacier is moving or the elevation it was at 100 years ago (might not be that steep a slope), or whether more water froze over the top of the glacier over the last 100 years, just like how archaeological sites are quite far under the ground as soil has built up over them.
@ofcourse1 They didn't say the ordinance was "extracted from the area", they said it was extracted, which means taken out of the ice. What likely happened was the first group got it out of the ice, then the disposal experts came in and hauled it off. You should work on your reading comprehension skills before you criticize other people's writing skills.
@any non americans reading these comments: Sorry about this, we're not all idiots, it's just that the less educated here have been brainwashed to think they too can be an expert on anything without any real knowledge on the subject, like say glaciers or climate change in general. All they seem to need is something they can loosely construe as "supportive evidence" and to them it's a done deal. We're not all like that I swear.
Lewtzor, Thank you for your "expert" point of view. ;)
We need to worry about all the plastic we are covering earth in. This story tells that ordinance was stored there and weather over the years covered it with snow and ice. Now after a 100 years the cycle is warm again and the snow and ice have melted and the ordinance is exposed. That plastic water bottle you are drinking from and tossing in the trash several times a day is not going away and it is becoming part of our oceans and getting into our food supply! We have done away with glass in favor of light weight plastic and it is the slow creeper on this planet. It takes resouces to make plastic and dispose of it and you can never really dispose of it. So weather comes and goes in cycles but damage we do to the earth with plastic will never go away.
I wonder if there are any chemical weapons up there? Yep... The past has a way of coming back to haunt us.
Mercury was used in making munitions back then so the melt may cause pollutants to get into water supplies in the area..
Scavengers can sell the spent casings for $$ to collectors, and from the picture there is quite a pile of them.. But I would imagine the government will make the area off limits in case there are more live rounds..
As for global warming, man always the arrogant animal sees himself as the center of all things.. Looking at long term shifts in global temps. reveals a cycle that we still do not fully understand the triggers.. Solar influence, volcanic influence and even inter planetary gravitational stress have been batted around.. We have had a bit of a hand in messing up the geostasys but those who are running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling are either uneducated or trying to take advantage of the uneducated.. Can you remember Al Gore's ramblings about warming causing cooling?? His solution was a carbon tax, gee I guess there is profit everywhere for the crafty Ferengi who stick to the laws of acquisition..
Roadrunnero,
Look at the photos and you will see that these are mostly "live" rounds, probably from a weapons cache. You really should not try to comment on Global Warming, since you seem to be in denial of what 98% of the scientific community agrees on.
SingBiker-what you mean to say is that "98% of the approved scientist" agree on global warming. Because liberal leaders ignore the thousands of scientist that don't agree with global warming.
If some of you would do some research instead of posting nonsense (like ofcourse1) you would discover that during this period, during the alpine fighting, more troops died in avalanches then from enemy fire. Which definitely proves ofcourse1 claims, right?
hey ofcourse1 have you never had snow? ever seen a leaf sitting on the snow just its darker color sitting in the sun it melt its was into the snow pack. And if its a glacier then the worry isn't was it the same temp its where is the buildup that should b on top of it from the last almost 100 years. glaciers built up little by little every years.
Yeah Ofcourse1. It was warmer 90 years ago. You keep making up logic to tell yourself that. For everyone else, this is an excellent example of what happens when education is underfunded.
the more serious problem left over from the two world wars is; the ship mines that are still out there, unreported is how many per year are found by the worlds Navy's that patrol the areas of known mine fields, to search for them.
After WW1 the area continued to accumulate more snow in the winter then melted in the summer. This was do to a cooling climate. How deep were they buried? Now we are back to a warming climate. And so it goes
Our poor, poor Earth. She contains so much garbage, contaminants and poisons that continue to destroy Her own infrastructure that we don't even know is there, and probably will never find.
There is GW Bush's WMD's we got em!
just wandering if any of it ended up in a museums.
So the glaciers were melted in WWI and refroze so much for global warming theory.
Global warming(Global Climate Change. Since "Global Warming" seems to cause some people to only think in terms of warmer temps) is happening. The question is is "Why"?...
Even if it is a cyclical event. To think that we have nothing to do with it? That the burning of fossil fuels, and other chemicals, isn't making the event faster, or happening sooner, or both, even if its just 1%. To say that we are in no way responsible seems like idiocy, lunacy, or just plain stupidity. The other question is what can we do about it? or is it to late?..Why do people seem so adamant about it not happening? What is it they have to gain? Why is it they are so easily talked into believing that something happening in front of their eyes..isn't?
Do you think firing HE rounds could have melted the ice, and then after the battle(s) the ice froze over? Possibly..
jared! How impressive. You just disproved the work of thousands of climate scientists over several decades. You sure are smart. I'll bet hardly anyone ever calls you stupid.
Andrew
No one is arguing that man contributes to environmental changes, the entire issue is how much.
You have one Group that says it is minute, and another that says it is catastrophically big.
The truth is somewhere in between.
DB
"the entire issue is how much"
Thats why I put.."even if its just 1%"..meaning that even if we are effecting it by 1%. We are still effecting it..
effecting or affecting?
Snow normally accumulates every year without melting in areas like this, so the glacier wasn't "melted" in 1917, Jared.
"So the glaciers were melted in WWI and refroze so much for global warming theory"
No as a matter of fact, the sunlight beating down on them over time causes them to slowly melt the surrounding ice and snow and slowly drop down below the surface.
There are giant fields in Antarctica where meteorite fragments are at the bottom of tiny pits melted out by this same exact process.
The recent elevated temperatures happen to be the reason why these shells in Italy were discovered though.
If you're going to try and toss a grenade, at least pull the pin out of your butt first, mmm'k?
affecting
I guess there's more to this story that wasn't printed because I sure didn't see anything stating that the "once-perennial" glacier melted previously. Did see the "once-perennial" statement though. Maybe Jared has the ability to take the facts and "spin" them to suit his opinion that global warming is only a theory. Or it was reported on Fox that the glacier melted back during WWI. Sorry Jared, just because you and the Subway guy share the same name doesn't mean that we think you know stuff that you're not telling us.
Hey, let's just not tell Algore, okay? He'd wet his pants or need to get comfort from another"massage therapist" if he heard glaciers melt AND refreeze, all on their own!
Where does it say that the glacier melted during WWI?
The ammo was placed there during the fighting and they didn't bother to remove it from this remote area (there were no helicopters back then, everything had to be carried on soldiers/mules backs). Together with the snowfall over the last 90+ years it was covered up and became part of the glacier that is now melting and revealing the rounds...
Here's the point, global warming idiots! Even if there is no global warming, we should not continue to pollute the air we breathe if we can find cleaner energy. Why wait till the droughts worsen, the mid-west blows away, the subways in New York flood, and Florida is underwater before doing something to help the planet, for whatever cause!
Pretending there is nothing to worry about, just to sustain profits for an oil industry that sells the oil commodities on the World Market won't reduce the price we pay at the pump! Only stronger regulations on speculation can do that, or Nationalizing the Oil industry can do that! It doesn't matter if we dig into every backyard to get the last U.S. oil out, the price will still be speculated on with the current Stock Market Commodities system. Can you understand why the only way to reduce the cost for Oil is to reduce demand on it? Why do you think the oil refiners (*KOCH BROTHERS*) keep refusing to build new up to date refineries? Because that would result in more available gas, reducing the demand and the price! And that is why they push so hard against alternative energy creation! And that is why they want to hurry up and get the last 22 per cent of the Oil leases, while refusing to drill on the ones they already own. They want to control the commodity!
Much to gain, or rather lose. The attack on our current energy usage is a huge reason. Check out the results of Al Gores carbon credit debacle. The poor will be the hardest hit if you raise energy prices.
Jared's comment is a prime example of how poor our educational system is. Glaciers are like bank accounts - there are deposits and withdrawals all the time. The deposits are the annual snowfalls. The withdrawls are summer melt back. When the deposits are greater than the withdrawals, snow accumulates, compacts under its own weight, turns to ice then deforms and moves down slope. Healthy glaciers accumulate and produce motion. During extended periods of a - there is a net loss - or melt back. We are seeing the ammo as it was first covered by snow falls but now is being melted out, as the warming of the planet has changed the glacier from a gain condition to a losing one.
As for global warming, its a pity that Al Gore became associated with it - and that people are so stupid as to trip over politics when dealing with science. I am an environmental geologist - and the reality is, global warming is taking place at an alarming rate. The "arguments" that its not, are like those from the 70s claiming cigarettes did not cause cancer. Believe it or not...its happening and its been happening. Yes, we are coming out of the last ice age - but greenhouse gases have accelerated the warming to a spectacular rate. Doesn't matter what your politics are - reality is reality. Its a pity that the population is generally scientifically illiterate...and stupid.
even a scientist should be able to understand that with such a small sample (actual amount of time humans were even paying enough attention to record weather fluctuations vs. the unknown number of years that the natural cycles have been occurring) there is no way any researcher could claim to actually know what is happening.
hans m. kruger ,sounds like you need to keep counting cow farts and cashing your government check.You said it yourself they build up and withdrawl all the time so the ammo was put there in 1917 and now it is uncovered by withdrawl.In 10 -20 years you probably will tell us all something different when they refreeze and buildup.
Metal and stone objects will sink into a glacier because they will attract sun and warm up compared to the ice and snow as well as when the ice softens/melts during summers. Also, glaciers add snow and ice from the top and can lose it at the bottom that is in contact with the earth. Thus something left on the surface of the glacier ends up inside it. Entire planes can disappear in one winter. Which explains how the uncovering of this stuff indicates melting now but has nothing to do with melting when it was deposited.
While we argue over this let's keep doing what we're doing so the problem that may not exist (but probably does) causes irreparable and irreversible damage. In other words, we'll err on the side of stupid.
Just to be sure, we'll elect a president who laughs at the concept of healing the planet.
Sound like a plan?
This story is about world war 1 ordinance........ But of course one flat earth, global warming denier jumps in and suddenly we're talking about the weather instead. It's bad enough these brain dead individuals are allowed to breed thus polluting the gene pool but they also seem to exclusively vote for Republican politicians and of course the slime trail those jerks leave behind pollutes our entire society...
America used to be a leader in science and technology but now the forces of stupidity have shouted down the forces of reason and progress....... I bet all those backward thinking idiots out there are very proud of themselves.................. It seems that after we were attacked by 10th century barbarians in 2001 our own 10th century barbarians started crawling out of the woodwork..... It's time to get out the raid and clean up this infestation of ignorance.
.
Jared, I can begin to even attempt to qualify the inanity of your comment. In spite of the fact that you indicate a zero understanding of climate change, you seem to think that weather patterns ceased, as that is what happened to cover up that ammunition after that war, and then melted away. Sheesh! And we wonder why we are falling behind in math and science in this country.
So everyone understands, these were unfired artillry shells varying in diameter from 75-150mm (3-6"). This was NOT incoming fire, which would appear as 'schrapnel' (jagged fragments of steel or iron). That schrapnel would have been hot, and melted in like meteorites. But, abandoned shells wouls have nested, (laying proximally on their sides) as we see in the photo. Their 'melt-in' would have been due to radiant solar heating of the darker shell body on the ice.
But what we have really seen is the complete melt-off of 90 years of accumulated snow and ice from this glacier, within the past few years. And seen. also, in tourist glaciers which have been operating for over 150 years.
r-a-quint (your #2.10) is is DOUBTFUL that these shells were transported up there by mules. Some kind of DRAFT horse, maybe, if done in the summer.
But in WWII my dad was part of a group that trained in Colorado to mount a unit of mule borne artillary thru the Alps in order to sneak up on Hitler, and also to use roads too narrow for trucks.
Problems were immediately apparent, beginning with the fact that Mules have relatively small feet, not good for 'plowing thru' deep snow, and snow shoes did not work as they put their back foot down on the front foot's snowshoe, causing them to stumble all the time.
Add the big guns onto the weight of the mule, and it was next to impossible for them to be effective in ANY snow at all.
And to top that off, the plane that was supposed to be the 'spotter' for the guns they were hauling had too low a ceiling to work in the alps. (not enough oxygen for the plane's engine).
Sadly, after months of training, the plan was abandoned, and the mules were mostly sent to glue factories.
Another plan bites the dust!
With him being an environmental geologist with extensive knowledge on the melting and re-freezing of glaciers then maybe Hans M. Krugger (#2.13) could tell us about the status of those Alpine glaciers when Hannibal decided to march his 40,000 soldiers and a herd of war elephants across the Alps to attack the Romans in 218 BC.
Could a commanding General accomplish a similar feat now days? Even without a herd of war elephants.
And ps: ....... the proponents of CO2 causing AGW should reply with a few of their brilliant comments on Hannibal's treck across the Alp Mountains into Italy.
Interesting bit of history, Sam. Here's something else to think about:
Would you agree that the atmosphere, basically, is like a large, enclosed "envelope"?
Would you agree that pumping billions of metric tons of letal filth into this "envelope" can cause deadly results to living organisms?
I'm sure you would agree that running a car in an enclosed garage has been proven to kill a person?
Global warming or not, allowing corporations to continue to pump crap into the air is wrong, or rather stupid. Contrary to the SCOTUS assumptions, corporations ARE NOT PEOPLE, but rather a collection of intellectual concepts focused on a bottom line. In corporate terms, or at least American corporate terms, humans/workers are expendable.
Why does it alway's have to be the glacier melting? Couldn't they just as easily be right where they were put and no one has been in that isolated area since to find them. As they did find them from glodal picture's and not by someone out for a Sunday stroll.
It's alway's the glacier melting first and no reasonable thought's allowed after that. If someone was there, then it stand's to reason, where the shell's are now, on the surface of a glacier, is where they were then, on the surface of a glacier. Where just like here in New York every winter season the snow comes and the snow goes. Covering and uncovering my lawn gernade's every year. Luckily in the past 100 year's the old ordinance police have not ventured on my gernade ladden lawn in the summer. Good thing to because I don't want to suddenly be classified as a melting glacier if they happen to find where grandpa but the gernade garden.
There is no viable or realistic solution or remedy to what you consider to be a problem JK. Unlike you, I do not worry or fret about something that I can do nothing about.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I hope you're not talking about our current govt.
8 years of Dems and then 8 years of Repubs and then 200 years of this go by and we wonder why we have gridlock in congress, $16T in debt, discrimination rampent and no solution. And the original article was about frozen 100 year old ammo...........
I'm just saying we have not evolved as much as we often like to think.....it's a bummer.
True, the most evolved people think we are a partial chromosome from the jungle, the less evolved people are religious.
Evolved? Not by a long shot. Read more and see for yourself.
Evolved and/or evolution has nothing to do with the “problems” you all speak of.
Those “problems” are rooted in the fact that the “lefty” liberals have taken control of every one of our public institutions of learning and the US now has like two (2) generations of miseducated adults, many of which are now in “decision making” positions that they lack the knowledge and/or qualifications for.
And those same generations, including many of those persons currently being nurtured (educated) keep wondering why things are in such a FUBAR mess while they continue blaming their opposing political factions for directly causing the “problems”.
HA, “Whatta hoot!”. ….. Like the “blind” blaming the ”blind”for not being able to “see the light”
Humm, interesting. The No Child Left Behind (Or, better know in professional educator circles as the, "All Children Left Behind") concept of pidgeon-holing our kids into neat little math, science, and language arts slots has caused more damage to the human ability to "liberally" seek knowledge, understanding, and self-capacity. Although Ted Kennedy was signatory to that piece of BS rightwing legislation, the Dems/Progressives/Liberals/"sane" Repubs (yes, there are a couple left out there) have debunked this "education strategy" as what it truly is: a dumbing-down of our youth in order to create an easily brainwashed subject for rightwing pro-corporate, anti-worker propaganda.
After a decade, look at the results: we have the Teabaggers en mass gleefully handing their hard earned capital to multi-millionaire "job creators", and fighting tooth and nail to reverse the only healthcare legislation in our country's history that will hold the health care industry responsible for actually providing care, rather than refuse it for some wack pre-condition excuse.
Very sad how millions of years of human evolution can be so easily reversed.
Very sad how millions of years of human evolution can be so easily reversed.
being from PA you certainly provide validity to that statement. go collect another government check. there are plenty of us out here paying taxes to support you and your new found "healthcare".
Gridlock is good, it slows down the march to socialism.
Lew,
You need to run foe pres. You seem to be very good apologizing to every third world country for your countrymen.
No, the glaciers were there then but growing. Now they are receding...as they would in the case of global warming or climate change to a warmer climate.
Mmm ..... you sound like the leading Global warming scientist. In the seventies he predicted a global freeze and now he is predicting a global hell.
100 years ago there were no glacier there, them there were some time later and now there is not. Sound like a 100 year cycle to me.
Just saying .........
No "Tired", there has been a cooling over the last 95 years that allowed the munitions to be covered with additional ice. In 2012 we have only retured to the ice level that was existing on the planet in 1917. So much for the warming affects of all the fossile fuels, vehicular carbon emissions and necular fallout which occurred prior to 1916. You enviromental wackjobs really need to get a life. You can't talk your way around the facts that just keep disproving your armageddon theories.
Texas boy: Global cooling was hyped by the press but had little backing in science, in the 70s. It has no backing now.
Get Real 2011: Not true. There was a cyclical cooling between 45 and the early 70s, but it masked the affects of CO2 in the climate. There is no cooling cycle now, and if anything, we are heading into a period of solar max where the sun induces more heat, amplifying the climate change affect.
Get Real,
Go to school before you mouth off. Glaciers are built slowly over time by SNOWFALL, not sleet or freezing rain. Our glaciers and icecaps are not only our storehouse of geologic history, but also our greatest store of fresh water.
Fact: The glacier surface that we see today or somewhat higher, was exposed during WWI.
Fact: Sun light heated the shells, causing them to melt into the ice, during th first 6-8 months.
Fact: Snow then covered the shells and the glacier each year for about 90 years.
Fact: Each 100" of snow accumulating on the surface became another inch of ice, due to the compression of the snow crystals into liquid, which immediately refroze.
Fact: Direct radiant energy and atmospheric heat erodes each years snowfall by as much as 50%.
Fact: Modern weather patterns have not only starved this and other European glaciers of additional snow cover, but even hve melted the surface and subsurface structures. This has caused shrinkage of famous Alpine tourist glaciers and exposed the 1918? suface of this glacier.
Columbus sailed south by west from Spain trying to reach India and China. Why? Was he an ignorant ass? NO, he knew from other sailors that there was NO "NorthWest Passage." Ironically, men have tried to find one, most often at the cost of their (and their crew's) lives ever since. Well last year, the Northwest passage did open. The Northern Polar Ice Cap shrank (MELTED) to such an extent that ships could sail the waters north of Canada and Russia. But in 2006, 'Top Gear' a BBC program could send a team of 3 Toyota 4wd pickups to the magnetic Noth Pole, AND return them.
Or maybe, you're just waiting for your property to become 'ocean-front.'
He's Right it's all Melting! "Columbus sailed south by west from Spain trying to reach India and China. Why? Was he an ignorant ass? NO, he knew from other sailors that there was NO "NorthWest Passage." Ironically, men have tried to find one, most often at the cost of their (and their crew's) lives ever since. Well last year, the Northwest passage did open. The Northern Polar Ice Cap shrank (MELTED) to such an extent that ships could sail the waters north of Canada and Russia. But in 2006, 'Top Gear' a BBC program could send a team of 3 Toyota 4wd pickups to the magnetic Noth Pole, AND return them.
Or maybe, you're just waiting for your property to become 'ocean-front.'
Columbus didn't look for a Northwest Passage because he didn't know there was a continent between him and China, he thought it was open water all the way. He sailed Southwest to take advantage of the known islands in the Atlantic(the Azores, Madeira, the Canaries) for resupply and to catch the Westward current and the trade wind in that latitude.
wonder if they are going to sell the ammo inert now on ebay or another site. would be worth some bucks
Clearly you have never been around arms or explosives. Some as it gets older becomes benign, but most is simply unstable, especially the WW1 stuff. Only a person experienced in old arms would have any idea of what is and is not dangerous.
your right DB, must be because i only had 22 years in the military. fresh water and extreme frozen temps tends to really degrade cordite and the other substances they used in ww1....thanks for playing though
Holy @!$%#, someone is actually going to talk about the article?
An article on WW1 munitions and the first four threads are about global warming or politics. I sometimes wonder why I bother to read the comment sections at all considering each and every one is pretty much the same ol' predictable gibberish.
@ Mark and DB Akron. When I went to demo school in 1972 courtesy of the USMC we were trained that when dealing with unstable ordinance you blow it in place. Do you both agree?
As far as the glacier melting enough to expose them I agree with Bill Marvels .
The term "Global Warning" hurt the presentation of the theory of "why" put forth by scientists .
"Global Climate Change" should have been used from the beginning. Anyone who denies that it is happening is burying their head in the sand. Lookat the Northeast last winter, It happened over a two day period in October. The previous winter was two to three feet of ice and snow accumulating and crushing buildings. That June a Tornado hit Springfield MA. and surrounding areas. About a month or so later an earthquake and a hurricane hit us within a three day span. While most of the US didn't have a winter which lead to a horrific drought Europe was being hit with a massive record breaking one. Tornado Alley has been out of whack in recent years with increasing numbers. South America's weather is changing as well. The migratory paths of land and sea animals are changing especially ocean mammals who follow the sea currents based on water temperatures. Look at what a Cat 1 hurricane named Isaac did when it stalled for two days after "backing up" after making landfall. All bizarre and only going to get worse. To those who refuse to recognize these facts please explain how you can hold onto your views. If anyone out there can persuade me without the name calling BS when your views can't be articulated I'm open to hearing an intelligent argument to back up your opinions.
Thanks for Listening ,
John H.
Dibs on the brass!
Going to need one big die for that, and a good strong press.
And a big mold to cast your boolits, might need to use a gas check.
You might want to look at the photo AGAIN. That wasn't small arms ammo, those were 75-150+mm artillery shells, cast-steel boat-tail shells used with powder bag propellant. The danger is in the stabilty of the 90+ year old explosive IN the shell. And the type of shell doesn't matter, that was principally determined by the fuse. The fact that theses shells have beeb exposed the radical temperature differentials and water infusion make them time-bombs. Sooner or later, they will go of on their own. If you read the article fully, you would see that ordnance disposal has aleady blown them up, presumably off the glacier.
Bill you are a stupid phuck, get your head out. What part of need a bid die or big mold don't you get. I think the sarcasm was pretty obvious.
Bill peed on my ARR parade :-(
Bill, you mentioned something I hadn't thought of; if these shell were stacked up for storage they wouldn't have fuses installed, making them somewhat safer. I agree, though, that the shells would likely be extremely dangerous to handle.
Don't let the peanut gallery bother you, information is good.
We will be paying for the last 100 years of idiocy and in the
years going forward with global warming as a result.
The article states that a recent high altitude heat wave caused the melt..........but normal or average climate wouldn't increase the ice level that much (100 years) so I tend to agree with jared in that global warming IN ADDITION to the heat wave would have exposed the remnants much earlier even possibly never covering them at all.
Thanks WWI for causing WWII.
... And WWII causing the Cold War and the Cold War causing the Iraq War and the Iraq War causing the .....
(Here's a man made problem everyone can agree on.)
I'm fo'ing
Good grief...here we go. He is a RICH man. If he wants to buy an airplane, who gives a hoot? Vote Him into office, work hard and save...quit whining, and someday maybe you can buy one. Semper Phi, Vacoub
Hmmmmmmmm....MSN playing games with pro-Romney posts...interesting, the rumors that they are a lefty front must be true. Semper Phi, Vacoub
Do you have the right story?
?
Isnt that supposed to be Semper Fi ? as in fidelis.
Stephen- step away from the bottle ; )
I agree: Semper Phi, Vacoub!
ban hammer time
You are soooooo pretty Srich. ; )
Thank you
To Zorro. Isn't the term climate scientists a form of an oxymoron?? These government sponsored scientists are the same ones spewing forth the stereotypical myths of the addictive, gateway factors of cannabis. In other words, they shape their information to meet the government's criteria of the moment. Point is, man is not responsible for global warming, should this phenomenon even be true, and marijuana is not addictive nor a gateway drug. Are we all settled on this misunderstanding now?
Alcohol is the real gateway drug.
no
HA, marijuana is a "gateway" drug when it is traded for some good sex.
What nonsense. The "same government scientists?" Clearly you have more opinion than understanding.
I don't think climate scientists have come out one way or the other on cannabis affecting the climate. Now, if we found that all the deniers were stoned out of their minds, I would believe that.
Back in the 70's, according to all the experts, we were headed for a new ice age. And of course it was mans fault then too. I think hair spray was big bad thing then. But being the environmentalists that we are, we have managed to return the earth to its 1940's state, saving the planet. So whats all the alarm about global warming?
No. Not according to "all the experts". Some scientists posited it. They were wrong, and not many people agreed with them back then. Get a new lie.
buffalo: We HAVE the new lie. It's called global warming.
Climate change is a constant, it does effect temperatures, we have had numerous ice ages, we will have more, weather will fluctuate, magnetic polls will shift, solar storms will change weather, so will a hundred other things, chicken little is the stupidest chick in the chicken coop. only now he runs around screaming the weather is changing the weather is changing, all I can say is when has it not been changing? weather patterns don't stay the same and the ice age is still in regression just what do you expect. things fluctuate, and it looks like were on the same level we were on 100 years ago, you cant stop it, you cant change it, if you have a degree you can make money on it, poorly spent money that is. chicken little is also the poorest chick in the coop, lost his a$$ trying to keep the sky floating, but it must have been worth it its still up their. thankyou chicken little you saved us all.
Well, all I can say is,
"Thank Goodness For Global Warming,
or Someone Could Have Been Hurt!"
That's the LAST time that I'll ever listen to those envirowackies!
GLOBAL WARMING SAVES LIVES!
Zorro and Andrew,
The emails released last year have already proved the farse of global warming and Jared's point is just too simple for you guys to understand. The ammo (unexploded ordinace) was laid on bare ground. Even you guys are able to reason that means that there was a lot less ice there 100 years ago than even today.
Yes we as humans are guilty of pollution and our carbon footprint should be lessened as much as possible but without bankrupting the world. Done with common sense it should be something we all could agree on. But the problem has been driven by liars and thiefs (Al Gore ring a bell?) who have made millions on this issue while the protestors have been dupted and fleeced!!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which one you have been!!! LOL
wrong, read 2.6 where I explain how they get below the surface - it's not exactly rocket science!
DUDE!!! What is wrong with you!? Don't you believe in ICE FAIRIES?
Man, the ice was deep...hundreds of feet deep. When the soldiers fell asleep, the Ice Faries came and buried it, DEEP down where they could not ever get at it...til now!
MAN! Get your story straight for next time!
Right is write, In your post you make the statement that the ordinance was laid on the bare ground. How do you know that to be true? At those elevations, regardless of when, the ground is most likely snow covered or ice covered (not necessarily Glacier covered) year round. I believe the article stated 3200 meters I believe. There could have been a battle, during the winter months, and the ordinance left lay for whatever reason. It doesn't mean that the ordinance was covered by a glacier and now lays exposed because of Global warming!!
The soldiers probably did not bury the ammo at all - it was just left in place when they ran away or froze to death. They may have been given an order to retreat, and after lugging that heavy crap up the mountain, were disinclined to carry it back down (or higher up.)
A fresh snow could bury it, and subsequent weather would cover it deeper.
@Chouse,
"it's not exactly rocket science!"
Apparently for Rightiswrong it is.
Interesting enough the ammo isn't lying points up or down, like they would have had they melted with the fatter heavier side sinking faster. They appeared again, laying flat, like the picture shows. Just like they hit the ground as they were dropped. The rocks in the pictures are on the ground also. They are appearing as they were laid by God before the battle. So I don't understand where the argument comes from that the ammo left behind sank through the ice after all these years. 1000's of pieces of jacketing laying flat, do not constitute sinking randomly through the ice.
Though ice fields come and go, we are at the tail end of another ice age that took thousands of years to get rid of.
Ice fields (glaciers) are fluid and constantly moving downward. Should the ammo have been locked in a glacier, they would not be located in the same spot as the battle they were a part of. They could possibly be relocated miles from their original location.
"So I don't understand where the argument comes from that the ammo left behind sank through the ice after all these years"
The comment from somebody who clearly doesn't get that artillery shells don't have a heavy end and a light end - they are balanced.
Got a new lie...The earth is warming and its your fault. At least according to all the expets.
I am a expert, and I do not agree. Get a newer lie.
The newest lie comes from Lyin' Ryan and the marathon.
HE can time travel ! Making his FOUR HOUR PLUS Marathon into only TWO HOURS " and something". The only marathon he has ever run and he can change his time by about two hours! If he would only apply that to the climate we would be in great shape!
Maybe it started in one time zone and ended in another.
flocker -- Tell us how you are an expert, especially in WW1 artillery ammo.
With copper priced like it is, there is a small fortune lying up there. Just advertise the location and some thieves will run up there and clean it up for the Italians.
Lightning Rod,
Better look again, those are cast steel artillery rounds, not light weapon ammo. Or maybe the lack of cartridge casings escaped you. They packed out the guns, and their personal ammo, but left the shells.
I'm confused. I was listening to this morbidly obese, college drop-out, drug addict on the radio. And he said that there was no such thing as global warming. Something about it being a fraud on the partt of pointy headed college liberals. What going on up on that glacier? I suspect the liberal press has this story all wrong. Mega ditto's.
So Al Gore is on the radio? Finally fessing up he was lying through his teeth at least. Good on him.
That's not funny Phil. Not cleaver... not funny. Kind of lame.
"Finance Police Alpine rescue unit"
No wonder Italy has problems....
damn, they found my ammo stash, i guess i will have to learn to hide it better
Zippy , You're not fooling me. That was your decoy stash !!! I'll find the real one soon. With Gold Bars and buckets full of Blood Diamonds !!!! Time is running out for you!!!! Next will be "The Search For Zippy's Guns ". (this thread needed some levity) I liked your joke comment better than all the off topic hate filled rants.
One word for all the hype producing, environmental government grant seeking brainiacs, inter-glacial period, oops two words.
They should find the soldiers that left them there 1915 and charge them for the cleanup.
Some of the worst battles of the war were fought on that front. You don't hear of them, because they are mostly forgotten. 600,000 Italians, Austrians and what we would recognize today as Croats and Slovenes died up there. There is just no place to dig in on a rocky slope when the arty is coming in. Then there were avalanches etc. If the glaciers continue to melt, there will be a lot more than ammo emerging from the ice.
jimb,
I suspect that the shells and light weapons w/ammo will be the more pleasant things coming out of the ice.
Fact..The earth is warming..the sea is rising ..the glaciers are melting...climate change has started with more and more floods and draughts.We are past the tipping point and there's no way to slow it down.so get used to it and try to explain to your children and grandchildren why there won't be enough food to go around and why you did nothing to solve the problem.Maybe you could save your lame jokes and excuses in these blogs to show them how you had been spun into a fosil fuel fool.
Soothing, you are by far the most educated person on this thread. Thank you for your astute and spot-on assessment.
You are a retarded ass. Morons like you in the past threw virgins into volcanoes with the same ignorant gusto you show in trying to blame the actions of man for the weather.
Your ignorant arrogance will be your undoing, but sadly it is not painful to be and idiot - though I wish it were.
LATroy,
And you would say all is fine with the unsinkable ship, as the Titanic slid to a 3000' sea floor.
Even if global warming is proven false, what about the corrosive effects of pumping CO, CO2 and SO4 into the atmosphere, to mix with water condensate, becoming carbolic acid, carbonic acid and sulpheric acid? Killing forests, fresh-water lakes and ponds, and even ocean shoal nest grounds.
latroy: All that name calling makes you right? It in fact, shows your class.
soothing,
As you say, we are past the tipping point (in ecologic destruction, resource consumption, and population.) I think the boulder started rolling out of control about 1950, with certain effects triggering more changes, which cause more, more, more. Why would anyone need to explain to their progeny "why you did nothing to stop it"? Human society does not have the wit and will-power to voluntarily limit its' own population. There is no human action to stop it - not by governments, other organizations, or individuals.
Natural processes will 'correct' things, but it will be drastic. You will know the program is working when the world population begins to drop (but by then, things may be so chaotic that no one will know the stats.)
By the way, if you are explaining things to your children and grandchildren, it will be obvious that you did nothing to solve the problem - they are the proof.
So what can be done about mailman?
Mailman,
Well said sir!